K 00:00:01

So hello, my name is Katelyn. I know we've already been introduced and talking through email. I'm actually a first year undergrad at USC. But I'm volunteering with the UCLA COVID Behind Bars project. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to speak with me today. Um and I'm going to with a disclaimer, I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we are about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. I want our conversation to flow freely. And I realized that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it now at the end of the interview or later on after further reflection. We're happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary for the transcript and the recording.

SN 00:01:05

((interviewee nods)) Okay, agreed.

K 00:01:07

Okay, so do you want to introduce yourself, your name, your organization and the types of case you're working on?

SN 00:01:14

Sure. I used to work for the LA Office of Inspector General. I left that job September 30th. But I was absolutely involved in COVID Behind Bars more largely, let's say. And, at one time, many monitors had been taken to cover other projects with skilled nursing facilities. That was a major push by the Board of Supervisors for our office to find out what was happening in those facilities. Because I wasn't involved in the project, that's all I can really speak about. But I was entering the jails during COVID. Seeing it evolve. And now I'm working with Loyola law school on things that aren't focused on any COVID issues. So it's neither here nor there to describe that in full, I guess, but absolutely passionate about what people endured during the pandemic, behind bars.

K 00:02:15

And can you speak about how COVID, like, changed what kind of cases you were seeing or how it changed, like your line of work?

SN 00:02:23

Yes. So it's more that all of my areas of concentration, let's say in the jails, were so affected by COVID. So I was monitoring closely solitary confinement in the LA jails, whether that means being in a single cell for a long period of time, or being disciplined, as well as uses of force. And I'm sure we'll go into this in further questioning. But the sheriff's department was trying to enforce the mandates, a lot of their younger staff, let's say, as well as maybe their more stubborn staff who was of a rank of lieutenant, let's say, were more resistive. And I can go into specific examples trying to keep in mind confidentiality. But yeah, it seemed that some of the department was divided in mentality that we will not cooperate with law enforcement from the Board of Supervisors, even though they are technically law enforcement, as well as we, we don't believe in this whole disease, and there'd be so many side conversations that I would hear about their own philosophies on whether or not COVID was real.

K 00:03:47

((interviewer nods)). Yeah, I can definitely see how that's problematic. I know you mentioned confidentiality, but are there, like, certain examples that you can give about, like, how that line of reasoning, like, affected their willingness to enforce certain mandates?

SN 00:04:04

Yes, I mean, the mandates over the pandemic, were somewhat switching on and off as things progress, and sometimes they would be very restrictive. I do remember in March that the whole world it seems, as well as LA County, was trying to figure out, what are we dealing with, but that was in March, you know, when the pandemic hit, and then come the summer, there was resistance, in ideology. Sorry, I didn't pronounce that right. At first, even though people were getting instructed by their supervisors that they needed to get vaccinated. So you can see people admitting that they'd gotten a vaccination or were wearing masks to meetings. But in between meetings, they would slide them down often and start talking about what they didn't believe, in what the government was saying whether it was federal or local.

K 00:05:02

Okay, yeah. And so you mentioned, like that happened over the summer were there, like, do you think that as COVID stretched on people became less cautious with it, like COVID fatigue? Or like, do you think it was kind of consistent throughout?

SN 00:05:17

Well with the Sheriff's Department, and I think the way that they think it was consistent, and it was as if erosion at the beach, you know, the waves keep crashing against a rock, and they slowly erode it. So I think that is the best metaphor for convincing the sheriff's department to go along with mask mandates and vaccine mandates. They were resistive, as a whole I would say, even though, individually, they absolutely varied in opinions. But most people I think, just wanted to keep their jobs, especially if they were ranked sergeant or higher. So they were more willing to go along with the mandates. When it got down to the deputy level, that's where I sensed the most resistance to the mandates.

K 00:06:08

And do you think like seeing all of this, like politicalization, even when people safety at risk did that, like change your perspective about, I guess, like the legal fields in general, or just about, like, how law enforcement officers like, like, where their interests and values lie, like, do you think that changed your perspective on anything?

SN 00:06:32

It changed my perspective, seeing the evolution. Because early on, you know, I was always obeying mask mandates, and anything that LA County said. So, you know, I was compliant without thinking a lot about whether or not I should be because if that's the law, I'm gonna obey it. And I would think that law enforcement officers would share that value because they are in law enforcement. But it seems that there was political resistance. And sorry, to go back to your former question. I, I saw mostly people trying to work hard, people that I was working with at least, people trying to work hard and respond to mandates and still try to get their job done. They were incredibly frustrated. So I was sympathizing with them in that sense, because I think they have such an important job looking over people in custody, especially. But you have to protect not only the people in custody, but yourself and your family. So there's a lot of dynamics involved, that I think they were contemplating, whereas I was mostly focused on my work. If there's a mandate, you obey it, and the sheriff's department more widely, I think, was thinking more holistic about what they believed, versus what they were hearing and what they were being told by their supervisors who may or may not be thinking two different things, and giving them two different instructions. But at the end of the day, there's a mandate to simply wear a mask. And it might not be comfortable. But you can do it, during a work day, especially in a custody environment, where you have to protect the people that are in custody. It didn't hold a lot of weight, when people would argue that they shouldn't wear their masks to me. ((Interviewer nods and agrees “mhm”)). And when I would see them without their masks, I was trying to be silent, and not kind of embroil myself in the political debate about whether or not they should be wearing them. So I would often speak with supervisors about the fact that anyone under them should wear a mask. But it wasn't something that I pressed very hard, because it does seem like at least the top level, command staff, let's say, at the sheriff's department was acknowledging those mandates and trying to enforce them. But when you have thousands and thousands of people working for you at different facilities, it's a little hard trying to echo that from the top.

K 00:09:07

Yeah, no, that definitely makes a lot of sense. And I can see how like, I guess, like, beaur- the bureaucratic organization makes it hard to like, create a consensus about like, what is considered like adequate behavior? Yeah, that's very interesting. Um I guess switching gears a little bit. Can you explain a little bit more of the work that you were doing during COVID? And like what specifically you were doing with the sheriff's office?

SN 00:09:34

Sure. So at the Office of Inspector General, we would do welfare checks for families that contacted us or even noteworthy arrests, you know, people that we needed to go visit and see because of their case and that it might be hyperbolic, let's say, in relation to what the sheriff's department is used to, let's say, and it was all over the place, we'd get calls from families about plumbing. So sometimes, obeying COVID rules, I would have to ask someone to step out of their cell so that I could inspect their toilet and confirm that, yes, their toilet was overflowing, or their vent wasn't working. So it was a little bit precarious, being in my position, having to inspect these things, trying to not touch anything to spread germs or spread anything that could affect someone in custody, who already has so much trouble accessing medical, like medical services in general. So it was just precarious. And I'm sorry, I keep spiraling in how I'm answering questions. There was just so much to navigate, especially week to week and month to month, because things were changing. And it goes back to the fact that at the top level in the sheriff's department, perhaps because they're dealing more with the Board of Supervisors, and in somewhat more political positions, they seemed to be echoing the message. But getting down to line level personnel was the hardest part. And especially because they would often blame their behavior on what they were dealing with. For instance, if I would go speak with even a sergeant or a deputy about something that was happening with these toilets, or vents in a certain cell, they may not be wearing their mask, I didn't make an issue of it. But then they would complain to me saying, ‘well, this person doesn't wear their mask.’ Speaking of people in custody who are in their own cell. ((Interviewee puts hand on face in frustration)). It's so confusing. I don't even know how I'm making my point. Other than that, it was confusing, it was very hard to navigate.

K 00:11:54

Were you able to see like any other instances of like, like, how do you, do you think like, the officer treatment of people who are in prison changed at all during COVID? Like, do you think that they were so respectful that like these communities were especially vulnerable to like COVID and the health issues?

SN 00:12:19

It may be a virtue of the limited experience I had doing my job speaking about things that necessarily, or not, were not necessarily COVID centered. But I do not feel that officers treated them much different. Officers, meaning anyone working in the jail setting, I really didn't see them, taking a COVID lens, let's say. ((Interviewee cringes/bares her teeth)). And I say that with that facial expression, because you would think that they would treat someone differently because of all of the issues, in a jail setting inherently and then adding COVID on top of it, and the way that it disproportionately affected populations. I saw no evidence of that in my conversation with people, (in) the sheriff's department, especially people in the jails on the line level, with higher up people like chiefs, commanders, captains, yes. But once you got past the lieutenant level, ((interviewee shakes her head)) it really didn't seem to have a major effect on their philosophy.

K 00:13:30

Do you think you were like surprised by that? Or like, do you think you expected them to react differently?

SN 00:13:37

No. ((Interviewee drags out the word and laughs)). And only because of the types of people that I see entering that job field, they seem to be doing it to have a job. And the stories that I've heard about why people have applied or why they might be transferring to another law enforcement agency. Some of it was COVID driven, but it sadly came down to masks. And because it seems that the Republican agenda was more anti mask than the Democrat agenda, it seemed to be politically driven.

K 00:14:22

Were masks, do you think like the biggest or like the most politicized issue, like that you saw in your work? Or were there like other issues that you thought became, like, were there other issues that you really saw, like emerging because of COVID that kind of became politicized or that people didn't really want to follow?

SN 00:14:45

I didn't see what I saw at the ground level in the jail become politicized because I don't think that that gets out to news media as often as what the sheriff's department at the top is doing especially in relation to what our office is looking at, let's say, with what they're doing. It was mostly the side conversations on the low level. And I was, I guess, interested enough to overhear the statements by sheriff's, sheriff's just in general, about their resistance to it seems, sadly, authority and the fact that they're sheriff's, this is a conundrum, because ((interviewee holds up one finger)) they are resistant to the mandates by the state, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) as well as the Board of Supervisors and ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) as well as their own command staff at times. I mean, we've seen the newspaper articles that people were willing to lose their jobs, rather than wear a mask to their jobs.

K 00:15:51

Wow, that's definitely, (people are) definitely pretty willing to go to extreme lengths it seems. That's really interesting, though. Do you think that like, your experience in COVID, and like seeing how far people were willing to go to not wear their masks and to like not, I guess, protect the interests of that like (that people are trying them?) Do you think that like, changed how you envisioned things being in the future like made you realize, okay, this is a problem, like, here's how it needs to be fixed, or how it should be fixed?

SN 00:16:27

Well, yes, and I'll speak about large, personal ideologies in that sense that when you cage people, and you put them in cells that are not six feet apart, and they may be conversing ((interviewee holds up one finger)) whether cell to cell or ((interviewee holds up another finger)) even on the yard, when they're free to be outside and have a little bit of outside time. And you have either deputies or at times trustees, which are people that are assigned work positions in the jails to hand out dinners. So people are serving food to you, who I would hope are wearing a mask, I have no guarantee that they were, it is hard to separate germs in a custody setting. So it makes me think about how fair it is to keep people in these cages for so long in the first place. Especially pre trial.

K 00:17:30

Yeah. Do you think COVID made you realize that more? Or is this something that you kind of believed before and then COVID kind of like just really emphasized that?

SN 00:17:41

The latter, for sure, because the, I mean, men's central jail is a place where I spent a lot of time. I absolutely believe that place needs to be torn down, for many reasons, but it is one of the most decrepit custody environments I've ever seen. And it is not conducive to ((interviewee holds up one finger)) not spreading germs, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) not spreading information, ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) not spreading, kind of, the criminal mindset. And this is why it goes back to my thinking that custody facilities are not gonna work in the long run. You can't have diseases spreading, whether it's COVID, or whether it's a bacterial infection, passed skin to skin, like staph, just jails and prisons are places where possibly, well not possibly, marginalized society members, people who are already marginalized, get locked up and learn from each other, especially without ((interviewee holds up one finger)) educational opportunities, and ((interviewee holds up another finger)) the opportunity to truly reflect in a rehabilitative way.

K 00:18:57

Do you have like, ideas for how, like, you envision it being better? I think because of all these issues with how like they're organized and like the public health risks that it puts prisoners in?

SN 00:19:10

I think that decarceration is the only issue and especially with pretrial detainees, because before you have been convicted of a crime, and during a pandemic, what justifies your need to be caged with four other people that you literally cannot separate from. Four man cells are very common at men’s central jail again, as well as many other custody facilities. But are people supposed to wear their masks and stay on their bunks all day? It seems like another form of isolation on top of their isolation via their deprivation of liberty.

K 00:19:53

How did you kind of, like, grapple with, like, personal beliefs, while also like doing work where you're kind of like witnessing it first hand, and you can kind of see all these issues within the system and within, like the facilities, like how do you kind of balance? Or just I guess, I don't know, like, how do you like, take your personal beliefs and like still see all the, like, things that are wrong with the system.

SN 00:20:23

I think my personal beliefs are that the system is very wrong. So it was very reconcilable, and especially with everything going (off) after the murder of George Floyd, which was pushing the societal conversation ((interviewee holds up one finger)) about the need for police in general, but the whole defund the police movement, as well as ((interviewee holds up another finger)) the oppression of minorities, let's say, across the nation. These systems, by design, ((interviewee holds up one finger)) are slow moving, and ((interviewee holds up another finger)) they require legislation and ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) legal action to change. That takes a lot of time for a lot of lawyers to argue about how it should change, or non lawyers. But because I'm a lawyer, I've seen a lot of lawyers argue, and I don't think the system was built to catch up with something that was so shocking to the system. And I think it took, it takes, a radical change, in response to something like this, to truly ensure the rights of citizens before trial, especially, after trial, that's a whole nother conversation. Which isn't very separate from what I'm saying now, but especially people who have not even been convicted of a crime, why incarcerate them when there's a pandemic, and they could be subject to catching a disease, which could be deadly?

K 00:21:51

Yeah, no, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I think like in your role as a lawyer, and like holding the beliefs that you have, like, what do you kind of want your role to be? Or like, how do you see yourself? Like, I think working to change the system, like if you think the system is capable of changing, if that, if that question makes sense.

SN 00:22:14

Yeah. Well, I have dreams of doing international work on decarceration. And I would say in quotes, ‘humane prison practices,’ even though I was just having a conversation before this call, that it's a, if you read the Mandela rules out of South Africa, it's on the treatment of prisoners. But you can't really ensure the rights of all people while incarcerating them, which are what the rules call for. And it's such a self defeating idea to think that you can incarcerate people, especially at the rate that we do in the US, and ensure their rights at the same time. By virtue of incarcerating them, you're cutting them off from ((interviewee holds up one finger)) their family, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) their friends, ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) their communities, and ((interviewee holds up a fourth finger)) their opportunities. So how do you expect for them to be rehabilitated and enter back into society?

K 00:23:12

Do you think that-

SN 00:23:12

That’s not a question for you. It's a question for, it's a rhetorical.

K 00:23:15

Yeah. ((Both interviewer and interviewee laugh)

K 00:23:17

Yeah, I think that is definitely like something that's so important to consider, especially, I guess, because you're so right, like, how do you make sure that people who, like, when the idea of like imprisonment automatically takes away so many rights? Like how can you ensure that rights are still protected at all, I think that's like a very good thing to consider.

SN 00:23:36

Well, especially because the way that law enforcement, especially in California, is constructed with prison officials, wardens, being the decision makers that are sued for rights violations that go on within their own prisons, or jails. They have so many people to manage, and these people ((interviewee holds up one finger)) who are unmanaged, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) who have to work an eight hour shift ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) by themselves, they cut corners. And that's just human nature, that if the job can get done with a few less things that I have to do in order to get my paycheck, people are going to do that. So I would often walk in and see people asleep, when they're the only person in charge of a row. And that's not what you're being paid for, but who knows what they had going on in their life, who knows (if) they were losing their mother or father, you know, with COVID .So I always tried to take the grain of salt and realize what people working there were going through, as well as the people in custody, but obviously felt more sympathy for the people in custody.

K 00:24:48

Do you think, did, did the pandemic influence how you view your role as a lawyer?

SN 00:24:58

Yes, it's made me realize that American government at large, tends to move too slow to catch up with what society wants, and I'm really inspired by Generation Z, I'm technically a millennial. So I'm not Generation Z, but the creativity, the passion for getting somewhere near equality and equity. I really like that. And I'm happy that generation Z is pushing it forward. It's just sad that in the legal profession, most of the decision makers are informed by their decades of experience, which are now decades old.

K 00:25:41

I guess. Yeah. Cause I think that's like a really good point about how sometimes like the system has so much like history, of like rules built up in place, that it's really hard to, like create any kind of form of change. Do you think that, I guess, with the pandemic demonstrating, like the need for change, like do you think there's, like, capability for things to change? Or do you think that like, something needs to be restructured with, like how laws are formed? Or like how the, like, prison system is structured? Inherently?

SN 00:26:18

Yes, I think America at large needs to rethink ((interviewee holds up one finger)) their local ordinances, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) their local laws, ((interviewee holds up a third finger)) as well as even state, ((interviewee holds up a fourth finger)) or federal laws. Because there are so many laws that can be argued, that's what we see on TV or all over. But people kind of pick and choose the laws that they like, especially state by state. And if this country is going to be founded on the idea that everyone should be treated humanely, which is pretty fundamental, in my mind, I think things need to be radically rewritten because I feel our country was founded on white supremacist ideals, and especially Christian values, when we're not dealing well with, you know, adjusting to current society needs.

K 00:27:18

Do you think, were there any, like big takeaways that you had based on your experience, like working from COVID? Especially like how that changed the work that you were doing before?

SN 00:27:29

Yes. And that's actually why I quit my job because I was technically working for LA County, and there's an email somewhere in cyberspace, where I was emailing a professor from New York, saying, I want to quit, because I don't want to work for the same system that incarcerates people in the first place. And it's made me take a grain of salt with any information that I ingest, and especially when it's from politicians, because it seems politicians are always interested in keeping their position. And no matter what they believe in and what got them there. I hope that they're open to hearing other points of view, and coming together with other politicians. Even people across the aisle in LA County, the Office of Inspector General and the sheriff's department are absolutely on different sides of the aisle. And I think collaboration would be better for society at large. But I think we're a long way from that.

K 00:28:33

Can you explain a little bit more what you meant when you said like, they were on opposite sides of the aisle? Like, what were the differences? Do you think that they weren't communicating or they weren't on the same page on?

SN 00:28:44

Well, Alex Villanueva as the current Sheriff, I would use one word to describe him. He's an obstructionist. He didn't want our office to do the work that we were mandated to do by the Board of Supervisors. And that made our work harder, even though there were, let's say, bright spots within his command staff of people that wanted to collaborate because even though our office was filled with prosecutors, and I'll cut myself short on describing that in full, but it seems that there's so much talk now about deputy gangs, which is a reality that needs to be investigated. But I think that that, action, let's say, should be informed by a, what's called a root cause analysis or a sentinel events review, getting down to the core causes, because if you're going to change it, I don't think prosecution is the only way to change a culture and the sheriff's department is in need of cultural reform, as well as possibly the Board of Supervisors because of their decades old rules and the fact that once people get to these higher positions, they've made it but then they enforce ideologies that they've learned over past decades, which are now decades old.

K 00:30:10

You mentioned deputy gangs. Can you explain what that means? I'm not really familiar with the term.

SN 00:30:16

Yeah, that's a term often used in newspapers. There's a lot of other terms like ((interviewee makes air quotes)) ‘sub cliques.’ I would say it's people that don't accept the sheriff's department and their supervisors, they find a way to avoid their supervisor’s, ((interviewee holds up one finger)) either watchful eye, ((interviewee holds up another finger)) or even what their supervisor is telling them to do, avoiding a directive and doing it themselves. So I see deputies as often avoiding what their supervisor says, ((interviewee makes air quotes)) ‘technically,’ to get the job done, to get their paycheck, and get out. I think deputy gangs are probably decades old. And it should be researched, looking back in the course of history, because I guarantee in the 70s, when LA was a little bit more ((interviewee makes air quotes)) ‘wild west.’ And I use that in quotes, that there were people doing the same thing. Yes, the people today need to learn, they need to be prosecuted for anything that they've done under the color of law, thinking that they were in the right for avoiding directives. I just think that there needs to be a more holistic approach to reforming the sheriff's department culture. And that includes LA County culture, because they still obey a lot of LA County's laws on many, many facets, let's say, of their operations.

K 00:31:44

How do you kind of see the culture being changed? Because it seems like, you said that it's really centered around prosecution right now?

SN 00:31:54

Yes, and I think that's just because of the higher ups in the Office of Inspector General, thinking that prosecution is the way to perhaps make an example of people. Sorry, I had to come inside. ((Interviewees audio and video begin to cut out))

K 00:32:11

No worries. (0.20) Oh, wait, I have, I'm having a hard time hearing you right now.

SN 00:32:37

( ) I'm sorry.

K 00:32:41

No worries. I just wasn't sure if it was on my end.

SN 00:32:45

(Might be) because of my internet connection has been (on) this hill, there's construction going on up the hill. Can you hear me now?

K 00:32:53

Yeah, yeah, it's better now.

SN 00:32:56

Yes, so I would see people who were truly trying to do the right thing. And it always spoke to me loudly when they were actually answering the needs of people in custody, perhaps beyond, you know, their rulebook, which outlined exactly what they should do. So prosecution is one aspect of oversight. But I think exposing issues that are affecting the people affected by law enforcement that really need to be spoken about, especially with the Family Assistance Project. That's an LA County initiative, that, because so many cooks are in the kitchen, let's say, you're still figuring it out. But that seems like the most important initiative that I've seen in my seven years at the Office of Inspector General, because supporting families (should be first).

K 00:33:51

Wait, so what program did you say it was again? And what kind of work, or like, what's the, like mission of it?

SN 00:33:57

Family Assistance Project, because, sadly, the sheriff's shoot people sometimes before they even know whether or not that person should have been shot at. No one should die because of an interaction (with officers). ( ) the middle of a mass shooting. So the Family Assistance Project (was) built to support anyone, anyone who lost a family member at the hands of the sheriff's department, whether in custody or in the streets, and it seems that (its) going towards a more community based (model) that's what I was working on at the Office of Inspector General, but the community (based model) seemed to be the most effective because they're around people they trust. People, especially people that are ( ) communities do not trust LA County. So that's a hurdle LA County can't get over ( ).

K 00:35:00

I guess like you, I feel like that brings up a good point about how there's obviously that relationship between, like policing and then also the criminal justice system. How do you think that changing our model of policing can reform the criminal justice system for the better.

SN 00:35:21

Training. I've seen the way that the sheriff's department is trained, I’ll even use the word (thick skulled), that it's often younger people who are being trained, they're thinking that it's all about how they hold a gun, and how they use force, thinking that their lives are endangered all the time. And that's often echoed to them throughout these trainings, that you're defending yourself, defending your family, you want to go home safe. And so they, I think, are incredibly too fearful to use the skills that they've been taught, and they're less likely to speak to people. And I think that speaking with someone is the best way to deescalate a situation. And, sadly, we see that play out on the news all the time. Yeah, they need training and in to speak to people and use what they call the gift of gab, or verbal judo. But verbal judo is a little bit of a strange term to me, because you're not in a fight. You're speaking with someone.

K 00:36:38

Yeah, no, that does seem like a little bit of a contrast between ideas. That's funny. Um, I know you mentioned earlier, so you worked at the Office of Inspector General, can you explain more about like, what made you leave your job? Or like, were there any specific events that really informed you like, this isn't really what I want to do, or what I want to be a part of?

SN 00:37:02

It was, it was mostly issues with management, and I decided that I wasn't going to follow their ideology. And I think that's all I'll say on that.

K 00:37:15

Yeah, okay. I'm trying to think about some other questions. Um, do you think that you saw, was there any impact on like, the work that you were doing and how it affected your personal life maybe? Or, like, were you able to see any, like relationships between, like the work, and like the people surrounding you?

SN 00:37:39

Oh, it was bad. Because I, the week before the pandemic hit, I had found black mold, which is toxic, below my house. So they had ripped apart my house, I had a hole in my kitchen floor for pretty much the entire pandemic, because I was trying to protect people in custody by not interacting with strangers. So it, it honestly was hell. But it's neither here nor there. I got through.

K 00:38:07

That's terrible. Hopefully, you were able to get that fixed since then.

SN 00:38:12

Still working on

K 00:38:14

it? Is that what the constructions for?

SN 00:38:16

Yeah, and I think that's why it, just the stress and then realizing that I didn't want to work for a system that incarcerated people in the first place, nor have to answer to politicians who were responding to things that I'd seen firsthand, yet they were answering more to the public, then it seems the facts on the ground, because perhaps those facts we're getting to them with my office structure, but it's okay. I wish everyone well at that office, as well as myself on my future career.

K 00:38:54

Yeah, I wish you on that too. Um, I feel like because you've talked about how sometimes there's like orders coming from the top and then how deputy officers wouldn't want to follow like mask mandates, but also how there's been some issues with like, top level management and maybe not like issuing the right orders to begin with. So do you think that it's a problem from like, both the bottom and the top or kind of, like how do you see like, like, maybe how that management style can be more effective on like both, both ends of the spectrum?

SN 00:39:26

Well, one thing that is COVID informed for sure is, I was getting the back and forth from my office on whether I should work from home or whether I needed to come into the office, but as I described with the black mold situation, and the open hole in my kitchen. I wish they would have asked us whether we had a conducive environment to work at home before mandating us to work at home. Because I would obey laws in the office on wearing masks. And it was a fine place to work but yeah. Then they implemented this system called Teletrac. And this really convinced me that I didn't want to work for their office because it was a system designed so that people could click and say, you're at work. But I would be talking to my bosses or talking to my colleagues often right when work began, I would often forget to log on to this separate data system and click that I was at work. And I didn't understand why they would take all the money to develop such a system to make sure that people were working from someone like me, who works a lot, even off hours, it was incredibly frustrating.

K 00:40:44

Were there any other changes when you saw that shift to work from home?

SN 00:40:53

I think our office was trying to give some semblance to everyone that was at home, of an office environment, we would often check into branch wide meetings or all staff meetings, and there was kind of icebreakers about what people were going through. Some needed it, probably, I didn't necessarily, but it was good to connect and process with other people. I just always think about the use of taxpayer dollars and the fact that during the pandemic, I thought that everyone that worked for the board of supervisors should be hustling. And the fact that they needed to develop a data system, simply to make sure that people were working all day really infuriated me thinking that other people might be skating the system, trying to get their paycheck without working. Because I believe it was a time when the government employees should have been answering the ball to doing whatever they needed to do.

K 00:41:57

Do you think that working from home did make people less efficient compared to pre pandemic when everything was in person?

SN 00:42:08

This, I think I can't extrapolate the experience of my office to the whole, but I was happy having the entire day to work to myself without interruptions, from this or that coworkers, not that they were unwanted, and they were unpleasant. But it was just more efficient in that way. For me personally. But I could see how that would easily be abused by people that didn't want to work hard. And I don't have any evidence that people from my office were doing that. But I can imagine that elsewhere in the county, there would be such people.

K 00:42:44

Yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I know you mentioned earlier that part of your work was doing wellness checks. How did that work, when you were working from home or was that like later on when things started opening up a little bit?

SN 00:42:58

So, even I was one of the first people to get the shots because we were designated as essential workers. So I never stopped going to the jail. ((Interviewee shrugs)). When there's a wellness check, when we get an email that someone needs to visit, they'd often be behind a glass door. So there was no worry about spreading COVID, but we would go check in on them and inform whoever we (need to) that they were okay. I'm glad that I never did a wellness check with people who were not ok or something that I couldn't handle. ((Notification beeps, cannot hear the rest of interviewee’s sentence)).

K 00:43:39

Um, were there any other, like protective barriers, like put in place within, like when you went to do the wellness checks? Because I know you mentioned maks and then you just mentioned the glass barriers. Do they put any other, like safety measures in place?

SN 00:43:58

No. There was a vaccine check on the way into the jail. Even though I have the vaccine and (carried around) in the wallet. I wouldn't take my wallet into the jail. So really, it was, I think the masks were the only real preventative measure for COVID-19 ( ) in the COVID-19 ward, there is a section of the jail for quarantining COVID-19 positive patients. I didn't go there often I passed through it once so I can't speak (more widely than that). Masks seemed the number one ( )

K 00:44:37

Do you have any more insight into how within the, how they kind of separated like people who were COVID positive or what measures they took within the prisons to try to minimize the spread of the pan- or of the virus?

SN 00:44:54

Yes. And we were informed on this even though I was not a point person so I would actually say if you can contact anyone from my former office, they would be more informed on that. Especially my former supervisor, Cathleen Beltz. So, other than segregating people, and sometimes putting entire dorms on ((interviewee does air quotes)) ‘quarantine status’ because one person tested positive and then been removed, but I think for seven days, they were on quarantine status restricted from yard, restricted visiting. It was sad to see, but I can understand that's what the sheriff's department needed to do. ( ).

K 00:45:42

Um, were there any other- Cause you said that you continued the wellness, wellness checks even when, like during the pandemic, were there things that you weren't able to continue? Because, like, of safety concerns, or was mostly everything running smoothly, or like continuing?

SN 00:46:03

Honestly, everything running smoothly. The only time I would be told that I could not visit somewhere was when they were under quarantine. So I couldn't speak with that person through the bars. It was easy to go along. ( ). Unfortunate for the person I wanted to speak to, (I’d) come back to visit later, but it was easy to navigate ( ) the circumstance.

K 00:46:29

And right when the pandemic began, what kind of like, immediate shift, did the office have? Cause I know like in the beginning, everything was kind of chaotic. And people were figuring out how to, like transition online. Like, did your office experience like that same kind of chaos, or like, or like what was just, like the experience, right when the transition first happened?

SN 00:46:53

Chaos. Absolutely. And because it tended to follow lines, it was interesting, but I think our office, my former office, ( ) in responding early enough to where I would say they were one of the first to realize that this was something serious, to take serious measures and to practice social distancing.

K 00:47:20

Oh, that's really interesting. Because I feel like it's nice that they were able to realize early on, or like it's, it's impressive that they were able to realize early on too. Um, let me think. I guess, do you have any other experiences that you feel like were really relevant during the pandemic that you would like to share?

SN 00:47:59

No. I'm trying to walk through my rolodex, all the memories, all the force reviews where the chief would say ‘that person's not wearing their mask, tell them that they have to wear their mask.’ And I would be thinking, are they really going to wear their mask? Probably no. But other than that, there's no specific example.

K 00:48:26

Were most of the people like not wearing masks, it was like in the, because I feel like you mentioned earlier, they would wear it when like interacting with people. And then when they're outside of like the work, like specific work environment, they wouldn't wear it, or …?

SN 00:48:43

This really has 100 different answers because of the difference and all the custody facilities, some of their facilities have open air environments, where some of them don't. So, it was so sporadic and random, that there really wasn't a theme of (them) that there were deputies (who were) resisting wearing a mask or getting vaccinated because ((interviewee’s audio cuts out)).

K 00:49:13

Wait, so sorry. Do you mind repeating what you said at the end there? I wasn't able to hear that.

SN 00:49:19

That they were, there were some deputies that were not willing to wear a mask (and that ..). For whatever reason that was. ( ) still hard for me to think that if you are (entrusted) in being a police officer and you're at work, you can at least wear a mask for eight hours. ( )

K 00:49:48

um, what do you think that society in general or like the public in general can kind of take away from the impact of the pandemic behind bars.

SN 00:50:03

They should rethink their theories of ((interviewee makes air quotes)) ‘good’ and ‘evil.’ And I'm gonna use quotes around both of those words, because, just because someone is incarcerated, for a crime, doesn't mean that their life is not (worth anything).

K 00:50:22

Yeah, no, I think that's definitely a really good point about how people who are incarcerated they're often, like dehumanized by society, right? And how that perception really needs to change. Do you think that perception shift needs to happen among law enforcement officers as well? Like? Or do you see that same kind of concept that people who are incarcerated their, like lives, aren't valued? Do you see that within people who work within the system?

SN 00:50:56

Yes, and I'll, ( ) more widely, there are just so many different types of people. And if I had a wish list of how I would ((interviewee makes air quotes)) ‘reform’ and I use that in quotes, reform the Sheriff's Department, because there are parts of it, that don't need reform, there are major parts of it that do. But it seems that in the background checks, they're lacking an emotional intelligence, ( ) an implicit bias (check), to look at these young applicants most of the time, and ensure that they're choosing to do that job for the right reasons. That is not of the warrior mentality of the guardian mentality. ( ) (We need guardians of society) not militarized police.

K 00:51:51

So what parts do you think do work really well, compared to the parts that need to be reformed?

SN 00:52:00

Just based off my experience, which is not informed by, I’m not, I’m 34. So I don't have the experience of years and decades of doing this work. But it does seem that police officers, who I saw as successful in their work, understood how to talk to people, whether it’s their supervisors, whether it's being a leader, with your peers, or whether it's (speaking with the public) they have to (be) less authoritative, ( ) speak with people, ( ) more understanding of what ( ) And that's mostly in interaction with the public.

K 00:52:47

Yeah, I think that that's a really interesting thing about how important communication really is right? And all of these systems. Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Or I don't know, any other things, experiences, thoughts?

SN 00:53:10

No. Other than that, I will be following along looking for the product of what you're working on because ( ) and you’re doing great work so good luck, and I'm excited to see what you find out.

K 00:53:25

Okay. Yes, I will definitely keep you updated. And thank you so much for your time, your responses. It was really, really great to hear. I think, just about your experiences, and also like your thoughts on the entire system in general. I really enjoyed talking to you.

SN 00:53:41

No problem. I'll be here. You know where to contact me. Good luck on your work, thank you. what I would like to work.

K 00:53:45

Okay, thank you so much for your time again.

SN: 00:53:48

Bye. ((Interviewee waves)).

K 00:53:49

Bye. ((Interviewer waves)).