LJ 00:00:01

Uh, so hello, my name is Lily Johnson, uh, with the UCLA Law COVID-19 Behind Bars Data Project. I want to start, um, by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we are about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. I want our conversation to flow freely. And I realized that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it at the end of the interview or later on after further reflection, we are happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and the recording. Um so yeah, Sharon, just uh if you could please introduce yourself.

SG 00:01:00

Hi, uh my name is Sharon Grisham, and I am a paralegal with Bird Marella in Los Angeles. And um I'm very happy and honored to be uh talking to you about this project.

LJ 00:01:13

Well we are very grateful for your participation. Uh and we would like uh to just ask you what you were doing ((laughs)) over a year ((both laugh)) ago, um crazy to say that, uh before the covid 19 pandemic.

SG 00:01:30

Yeah, in the before times, um workwise, um I was obviously going into work every day, um working on uh white collar uh litigation, complex civil litigation, if you, you know, sort of healthcare internal investigations is where a lot of what our firm does, and a lot of things I was working on, um you know, just various sort of corporate world civil litigation world. Um and, you know, just living my life. I had trips planned ((laughs)) like everyone else did. Um and then in early March, we started hearing rumblings along with the rest of the country. And uh the firm quickly switched to a, well, let's have a skeleton crew thing, you know, we're going to cycle people in and out, you know, you may sign up and work for a few hours each week in the office, but other than that you're going to be home, like okay. And I remember I had my first work at home day, and I was kind of resistant to it at first, I –I thought it would be hard to concentrate and just not, just not what I wanted. Uh but you know, it went all right. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'm so glad tomorrow is you know, whatever it was, Tuesday or Wednesday, tomorrow is an in-office day, so I can go in and I’ll have the place to myself. And then, uh you know, we got the LA shut down orders. And that's like, you're not coming back. So it's like, yeah, sometimes I think about my office, and there's probably like, you know, got a half full cup of coffee sitting on my desk. And I don't even know if I– I think I closed my door. I don't know, it's strange, it's gonna look like, you know, the ruins of Pompeii when we go back, everyone just fleeing at once. And um–

LJ 00:03:26

(indiscernible)

SG 00:3:27

Yeah um yeah, so you know, for the first few months, you know, we got kind of used to working from home and kept working on the regular cases. And um you know, obviously watched the news with, you know, fear and anxiety and not knowing what was going on. And then in uh late May, is when I learned that our firm um was going to be representing inmates at Lompoc and Terminal Island prisons. Uh those are um federal prison complexes here in Southern California area, uh that we would be representing um inmates and, you know, how they are… It wasn't quite clear at the beginning, but the prison's response to the COVID crisis and how it was impacting these incarcerated populations. And I was tapped to be the paralegal on those. And um you know, it became very clear very quickly, that this was going to be very different from anything any of us had worked on before and very different from anything the firm had done before. And that it would be uh very uh big and very complicated, um and require a lot of organization and a lot of um, frankly, a lot of um, you know empathy and um you know, sort of tapping into that skill set to um, to understand what was going on, and the needs of these folks, and most particularly the needs of their families and loved ones on the outside, who became, for the most part, our major contact with, uh the inmates and what was going on on the inside.

LJ 00:05:27

And so before this, had you had ever experienced, uh representing those incarcerated or anything to do with prison law? Or was this kind of your first instance working with this type of thing?

SG 00:05:38

Um, very little. At my previous firm, I did work on a pro bono case, um uh habeas case, um representing a person on death row in Texas. So I did… um come to think of it, maybe that's why I was tapped for this. So I did come to it with a little bit of experience, um you know, sort of, you know, navigating the prison system a little bit, you know, how you have to, uh correspond with –with people who are incarcerated, and you know, stamp everything, legal mail, and, uh you know, sort of arranging visits and –and –and things like that. But that was just one person. And it was just for a few months that I worked on that. This is much bigger, and, um you know, it's –it's still going on. ((laughs)) As –as soon as I finish this interview, I have, um I have some charts I got to work up and things we're gonna file later today. ((laughs)) For Lompoc, so yeah.

LJ 00:06:37

We'll try not to keep you too long so you can get back to–

SG 00:06:40

Oh, that's okay. No, no, no

LJ 00:06:41

–work. Um but

SG 00:06:42

Just uh...

LJ 00:06:43

What did you find was a bit – cause you have previously done – besides the size and the scope, what have you found with COVID these different procedures that you're having to follow? What are the biggest differences? Cause, it's really, everything's going through you and in terms of–

SG 00:06:58

Mmhm.

LJ 00:06:59

–client contact, um different procedural, that’s… so how did that have to shift?

07:07

((sighs)) Um, I would say –I would say one of the biggest things is, um receiving intake communications from people. Like I said, the bulk of that comes through emails and phone calls from families. And I sort of became the point person for, um sorting through the incoming emails and calls in the beginning, it was so many, and it's sort of tapered off a little bit now. Um but the thing is, the inmates would also, um you know, write letters and –and complete questionnaires and tell us what's going on. And with COVID, they're sending those letters to our office. And obviously, the office is shut down, there's nobody there. So we've had to kind of work out this system where the office manager, he, um he sort of is in charge of, you know, collecting and amassing all of the in person mail that's coming in, and he'll email me, you know, every few weeks and be like, Hey, I have a bucket of, you know, maybe four dozen letters, or maybe two dozen letters, or maybe five dozen letters, you know, the the volume ebbs and flows. But he's like, Hey, are you ready for me to go ahead and scan these in. And so then we have one of our amazing office services staff go into the office, you know, just for a discrete period of time for a couple of hours by themselves, um to physically scan in all those letters and, um upload them. I work with them to get them uploaded to our network in PDF form. So then we can consolidate them and read them and have them there as needed. That's probably the biggest logistical challenge. And –and of course, uh you know, I –I assume that one prison case I worked on before there were –there were visits between the attorneys and our client, even though the client was in a different state. Um if this were dealing with anything other than COVID, I assume, especially since both prisons are fairly close by, uh we would be, um visiting our class members and –and getting to see them and talk to them. And obviously that can't happen. So...

LJ 00:09:25

Uh beyond that clear logistical issue, was there anything that really either distressed or surprised you? Obviously you have previous experience but the way dealing with prison law, conversations with inmates, anything that particularly distressed or upset, uh you in that...

SG 00:09:45

((sighs)) Um, I –I have, um been fortunate enough to do many phone interviews with, um many inmates. That's –that's a-another primary contact we've had in lieu of visits is, um doing lots and lots of phone interviews with folks. And I think, um I –I think one of the hardest things that I hear people saying over and over again, is just the lack of contact, the lack of news, not knowing what's going on on the outside. I mean, obviously, people who are incarcerated are cut off from the outside world anyway. But COVID has made it 100 times worse. For months and months and months all visitation was suspended. Um this is Lompoc now that I'm speaking of. Um I –I –I think probably from March or April until October, if I have those dates, correct. And then I believe in October, November, they resumed visitation for a few –a little while, you know, with the plexiglass, and no touching and all of that. Um and I think they, um rescinded that, again, uh during the resurge over the holidays. And I believe they may just be about to start that up again. But I think the lack of contact with regular visitors, the lack of contact, even with, you know, counsel, um, the lack of news as to what's going on, and –and –and when this is going to end, I mean, we all sort of feel that in a way. When –when is this going to end? When is this going to go back to quote unquote, normal, and I think the incarcerated population is feeling that times 100. Um, you know, obviously, the logistical ways that their lives have changed. Um, you know, it seems like, uh the prisons are often using, um the SHU in um solitary confinement, the SHU solitary housing unit, um as quarantine, um especially in the beginning. So you know, you come down sick, you're having these scary symptoms, um you don't feel well, and so you're isolated from everyone else. And on the face of it, I mean, that –that can sound logical, sure. But you… what that means is that you're cut off from medical care, you're cut off from human contact, even what could be made safe with proper protective gear. Um, you know, you're not getting proper access to showers, to email, to phones. Um, that –it's –it's really awful. And I know, you know, I know, some people, um are very hesitant and reluctant to report symptoms, because they don't want that to happen. And that increases the spread of the virus. ((sighs))

LJ 00:12:40

Has your opinion on prisons and prison law shifted? From your time? On working on this case with COVID? Or is it something that you like… I'm not sure how to phrase the question. But, uh have –have you had a shift in opinion? Not necessarily even opinion or awareness? Maybe a better way to put it?

SG 00:13:06

Um yeah, I absolutely have become far more aware of, um what the conditions are like, and what it can be like on a day to day basis. And, you know, I –I certainly don't pretend to have any answers. I don't have any answers, um as to how to make things better, really. But there, I –I think, you know, I–I–I–I I've always felt just personally that this country has a very serious issue with mass incarceration. And I, you know, don’t know if you want me to get too much into my own private opinions, but you know, I have very strong and negative opinions about systemic racism and the system and the use of private prisons, etc. Um and I think, um you know, all –all of those issues are on display. Um you know, from, you know, looking at individual, uh people's, you know, background and record and, you know, kind of wondering, well, how did this person get in here with this sentence for this offense and someone else, you know, maybe with a different name or, you know, whatever. Um down to how the –how the prisons are run, certainly we're seeing how they're responding to this crisis. Um you know, very, lax uh enforcement of um simple safety measures, um you know, unpreparedness for dealing with infectious disease, poor and inadequate uh medical access to begin with, which has been worsened by COVID. Um, yeah, I've definitely become more aware of all of that.

LJ 00:15:06

And that being said, do you think there's something that we, as a society, um can take away from the impact of the pandemic, uh behind bars?

SG 00:15:18

Um, I, I would say one of the biggest things is um… We've got to start addressing medical care and medical access in prisons. And, and I think we have to start looking at these prison populations, as um you know… These facilities are part of the communities in which they operate. And um I think, I –I think it really just comes down to seeing these people as the human beings they are, as uh, my two are men's prisons, so you know, seeing them as fathers and sons and brothers, and, you know, just people who deserve the same quality of care as everyone else. Um, people who, you –you know, I –I, it always struck me because one, you know, one issue that has been revisited as we've interviewed inmates and –and tried to get an idea of conditions on the ground is, you know, mask wearing and simple social distancing and things like that. And, you know, do, frankly, do the COs, the correctional officers, do they practice those? Do they enforce it? And, you know, a lot of times the answer is no. And, and I've never understood that from a human perspective, but also just from a practical perspective, because the COs and the staff, you know, the prisons, prisons are full of, you know, people who –who work there, that's their place of work. And, you know, I'm sure most of them are doing the best they can and trying to do a good job. Um you know, everyone's different. But it baffles me how they can be lax about protecting their own health, and then they're going to go home at the end of the day to their families, and go run errands on the weekend and go to the grocery store. And you know, even if they're kind of being careful, hopefully, um there's, the –the prisons are such a hotbed of infection. How can they be, you –you know, they should be caring about the people under their charge, obviously. But even if they're not, how can they not care about keeping themselves and the wider community safe? Um it –it's like there's a disconnect and they don't realize, hey, I'm a physical living link between these two populations, the prison population and the wider community in the city of Lompoc, for example, and um you know, there's like a, I don't know, I don't understand how they don't get that connection.

LJ 00:18:09

I am… this is all really heavy stuff. Um–

SG 00:18:13

Yeah

LJ 00:18:14

And so I’d like to ask how, if you feel comfortable, how has been your personal experience during this time, in–

SG 00:18:20

Um

LJ 00:18:21

–the dealing both with the pandemic, but also working with those who are in really atrocious living conditions?

SG 00:18:30

Um, probably every day I feel varying measures of helpless and guilt stricken privilege over all of it. Um I feel very helpless, because I, I read the CorrLinks messages. That's like the email system, the CorrLinks messages from um inmates. I read emails from their family, some of whom, you know, uh we've developed a first name basis, you know, Oh, hi, Sharon, duh-duh-duh, I want to ask about this. Oh, hi, duh-duh-duh, you know, how you doing? You know, this is what's going on. And I talked to these families and I feel like I'm constantly having to say either, no, I'm sorry, or I don't know, over and over and over again. Um you know, yesterday, we were there with –we had a hearing on Friday, and uh families can dial in and participate in the hearing. And um someone messaged me yesterday, an inmate’s um significant other and –and mother, and we're saying, Oh hey, we, you know, it sounds like on the inmate, you know, or on the hearing that they're going to um re-review applications for pa– uh compassionate release. And I had to write back and –and say, No, I'm –I’m sorry, that was a misunderstanding. The judge was speaking in hypotheticals, if you were to re-review this duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. And it’s like, oh, so there's no chance they're going to, you know, re-review this denial. And –and again, you know, no, I'm sorry, and I don't know. I don't know, theoretically it's possible, but probably not. So no, I'm sorry. ((laughs)) I–I feel like I say those phrases over and over again. Um you know, oh, you know, my person is not, um in the class, can –can you just represent them or, you know, they haven't been able to get access to their, uh their HIV drugs or to their, you know, they've been waiting for this surgical procedure on their knee for over two years, or, you know, they're not, you know, getting enough food, or they're not getting access to this, can you –can you help them? Can– No, I'm so sorry, this is a class action, narrowly focused on, um getting home confinement considered for people who qualify as members of the class based on age or underlying medical conditions. So I'm so sorry, your person, and their situation isn't something that we can help with. Um, so it's– can you refer me to an attorney? I'm –I’m so sorry, we're not able to do that, either. So it's that feeling of helplessness over and over again. And coupled with that is, you know, just the stupid privilege that I have as a white person who, you know, has been able to have access to, you know, education and –and good fortune in my life and to be sitting here in my dining room working from home, doing this work. So, yeah, that's– those are probably the two hardest things.

LJ 00:21:50

A bit along that line, um how have you felt towards, uh administrators, judges and other public officials during this time, in terms of allowing for compassionate release, um and different actions that have been taken?

SG 00:22:05

Um, you know, I'll be honest, I really, I don't really know what's going on with other cases or other, um prisons beyond our, uh particular class actions. And, for instance, that's a good point, compassionate release, that's sort of a different avenue than what we're working on. And I'm actually not sure, um what the rates are. I hope, I hope they're pretty high. As for our judges, um, a–again, I haven't really been able to sit in on the hearings or follow things that closely from that aspect of it, but um, you know, I–I obviously feel that the judge, uh acted appropriately in ((laughs)) granting our –our –our motions and our push to establish a class. Um, I –I think, uh they established the class on good, uh parameters. Um we're focused on folks who are over 50, and/or have, um you know, a fairly extensive, uh list of any underlying conditions, uh which fall in line with CDC guidelines. Um, I think, um, uh you know, and thinking about it from the limited knowledge that I have, I don't really have first hand knowledge of, of the judge’s actions, more just on, you know, reading the orders that come through and talking to the attorneys. Um, I –I –I think our judge is pretty, um, you know, pretty good, pretty on the ball, pretty fair with um, you know, going through this process. Um, you know, now we're just uh, you know, kind of working on the BoP, the Bureau of Prisons, um you know, to kind of get them to comply with –with things the judge has asked them to do. So…

LJ 00:24:05

Um so you mentioned a little bit about the struggle in first starting to work from home and the different, um circumstances that arise with that. Do you think it has impacted your ability to be working on such a case, especially dealing with inmates where you're not having clients come to the office or this and that. Um, you talked a bit about logistics with, uh with communication between the clients, but I'm talking here just in sharing information within the law firm, uh you can't just knock on someone's, uh office door, you know, people can't just be coming to you to ask questions and how that has–

SG 00:24:39

Yeah

LJ 00:24:40

–impacted things.

SG 00:24:42

You know, um, to be honest, it has not had really a negative impact, I don't think. Certainly not as much as we, or as I would have thought. Um just sort of in general working from home and this case in particular, um as like I said, I was pretty reluctant at first because, um, yeah, I just, you know, I feel like, Oh, I'm more focused in my dedicated office at work, and you can just, like, say pop-in in people's offices or whatever. Um, but honestly, I –I think we've been able to transition pretty well. If anything, and you know, some people might not say that this is a good thing. But, um, I feel almost like I can communicate with people more and get more done, because, you know, there's no commute time. My office is, you know, just in the other room. ((laughs)) And –and again, I'm not –I’m not saying this is a good thing, but you know, you get up in the morning, log on, make coffee, come back, and you know, you're kind of just… I–I definitely feel like I'm sort of working a little bit more and able to just kind of have quicker, uh you know, little check in conversations, or read or reply to emails, whether they're from family members, or inmates or attorneys about the case, kind of on the fly, just, you know, like, on my phone, as I'm, you know, sitting on the couch or, um you know, maybe just working. I don't know, getting a little more work done since you cut out the commute time and work and home are just kind of all mixed up together. Um, I yeah, I would, so I would say in that aspect, um it hasn't had a negative effect. I think it's just, um, you know, not being able to see people, not being able to see clients in person and dealing with the influx of physical hardcopy paper documents that come in, whether they be correspondents or medical records. Um but again, you know, we would probably scan them in any way, even if things were normal. So, you know, we're –we’re making it work.

LJ 00:27:02

Oh, well, I'm glad to hear that, uh you guys are capable of doing that. I am, I also, of course, not to –to overstep with an ongoing case, um about the class, you say, over 50 with underlying medical conditions. Um, what’s usually the most common medical condition, what, um, I would love to, uh just personally would love to know a little bit more about the type of people–

SG 00:27:25

Yeah, ab-absolutely.

LJ 00:27:26

–that you guys are…

SG 00:27:27

Um, firstly, it's –it’s a little broader than that. It’s people who are over 50, and/or have the underlying medical conditions. So it's a, you know, we have a lot of folks over 50, who thank goodness, are otherwise healthy. We have a lot of folks under 50, who may have some of the conditions, and let me just think off the top of my head, um asthma, um obesity, uh you know, certain BMI. Um, I–I, those are –are two of the, um sort of most common ones. Um, uh any sort of, uh liver disease, kidney disease or –or malfunction, um anything with the heart, um HIV, or any other, um, uh condition which suppresses your immune system, um is –is going to be considered in the class. I’m trying to think what else? Um, hm, I feel like I'm missing some. Those are probably… I–I–I know, there are more like some specific, uh conditions. Um, if you want I– do you want me to check our list?

LJ 00:28:40

No, no. Just –just the general is –is really great to know about to kinda give a little bit perspective–

SG 00:28:47

Yeah, absolutely.

LJ 00:28:48

–of what you’ve been working on. Um, now, I uh, wonder also kind of how… do you consider yourself an advocate now, uh for –for those incarcerated, and whether you felt that way before this sort of this project and this work?

SG 00:29:07

No, I absolutely do now. Yes. Um, I yes. And –and I'm very proud to be and I –I think before, you know, I, you know, I tried to be reasonably well educated about things. I–I–I knew a little bit about the prison system in general. Um, you know, I think I would have, you know, said, Oh, yes, I'm, you know, mass incarceration is a terrible problem. It's riddled with racism and abuse and –and etc, it needs to be reformed. Um but this has absolutely given me a perspective that I never could have had otherwise. And, um yes, I–I would definitely consider myself an advocate for the inmates and for their families too, because this affects whole families. You know, it –it –it tears them apart and –and you have, um parents, oh my gosh, the anguished parents, um that I talked to, and significant others and children and siblings and –and even just friends. Um, they –they are suffering too because they can't connect with their loved one the way they're used to being able to do through visits. Um or sometimes even through phone calls or emails, and, you know, access to phones and emails is –is quite, um brief, at best. And that's like everything else in the world that's just become worse with COVID. And, um, one –one thing I noticed when I talked to a lot of family members, and it really kind of breaks my heart, is many of them, you know, are calling or writing and, you know, they're –they're very desperate for information, and they're so scared for their loved one, and in some cases, they haven't heard from them in a long time, may not even know where they are. We've had some cases where, you know, oh, he –he said that he might be being transferred. But I don't know if he has yet or not, I can't get in any information. And all of that is bad enough. But what really breaks my heart is when they're talking to me, and they're explaining this. And they have almost like a, I don't know how to describe it, like a tone of, like an apologetic tone in their voice. Almost like… I don't know, they probably… Well, I don't want to speculate but I think –I think our society, um so, um denigrates people who are incarcerated or who have been incarcerated and their families, it's almost like they seem to feel like I know I don't have a right to be worried about this person, because they're, quote, a bad person, and they're in prison, but I love them and they're my, yeah, they're my son, they're my baby, or they're my loved one, they’re my husband. And, you know, I'm worried about them. And I know I probably shouldn't ask for help, but can you please help me anyway? And I –I could be reading into it, but I–I just sort of hear that undertone sometimes. And, um, and yeah, and that just breaks my heart because, you know, no matter what their story, um they’re people and they're entitled to their due process under the law, and they're entitled to be treated humanely, and, you know, with dignity and respect as a human being, and so are their families. And so I–I always tried to be a–aware of that, obviously, and I tried to do that. And, you know, I think sometimes, and I think a lot of time, a lot of the times the families just want someone to listen with a little bit of empathy and non judgement, you know what I mean? I get that a lot. And –and sometimes people are so happy just, I –I try and if –if I can, if I have the time, and –and we have a paralegal clerk who's doing, who's sort of helped me with a lot of the intake and I sort of, you know, direct and guide her. And I say just you know, just listen, just you know, within reason just let them talk a little bit and even if you, even if at the end of the call, it's again I don't know or no I'm sorry. Um, you know, just –just listen to them with empathy and –and you know, non judgement and you know, help them feel that they and their loved one are worthy of being listened to and having their fears and their pain heard and addressed in any way possible.

LJ 00:34:03

You –you are –you are so right. And that is so important. Um, and something that can be so lost–

SG 00:34:11

Yeah

LJ 00:34:12

–in the legal profession. Uh so thank you for reminding –for reminding me and reminding all of us, um on that. I um, I also wonder what, if any, change you think there will be in prisons because of covid? Um if you think this experience will change how prisons are run, how advocates operate, um anywhere?

SG 00:34:38

Uh, to give you the answer, I don't know. Um, I would, I would certainly hope so. Um, again, I –I would hope if nothing else, um it causes advocates and people in organizations to take a serious look at, um medical care and medical access in prisons, because that's so much the linchpin of all of this. And I think COVID has really exposed those weak points. Um, I don't know, I hope so. I hope so.

LJ 00:35:17

Um, and in wanting to be respectful to your time I um, I ask you now, if there's anything else you think should be recorded on the record for what it is like to be a paralegal on a team representing those incarcerated, um and what pri– the state of prisons and prison law during COVID-19 pandemic.

SG 00:35:42

Um, I would just say it's absolutely been educational and humbling. Um, and I –I –I definitely think I speak for myself and everyone on the team that my firm, the attorneys, the clerks, the –the you know, everyone working on this, that… Um I think the same could be said for all of us that you know, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, that it's definitely opened our eyes, uh to all of the, um, you know, injustices and –and humanity in the American prison system. And I really do hope this brings about some kind of lasting change. And –and I hope, for me personally and our firm that, um we, you know, we always have done pro bono work, I –I hope that we, um can continue with pro bono projects dealing with, um people, uh you know, suffering in the prison system. Um I think they're definitely a population which is often, uh forgotten or neglected.

LJ 00:37:04

No, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you. Just thank you so much for all that you've been doing as well. And as a law student, I appreciate so much hearing from you.

SG 00:37:15

Oh, thank you so much for this opportunity. It's –it's a wonderful project you're doing and I'm very honored to participate.