BM 00:00:00

Record. Alright, so I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we're about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. Uh, I want our conversation to flow freely and I realized that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it at the end of the interview or later on after further reflection, we are happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and the recording. Good?

PG 00:00:46

Yes.

BM 00:00:47

All right. I'm Bailey Miller, introduce myself. Um, I'm a 2L. My background is in, um film studies and philosophy. So telling people's stories is sort of what brought me to law school. Um, I worked in the San Diego Public Defender's office last summer, which was, you know, in the height of, how are we dealing with COVID and –and very weird and I will be working for the federal defenders of the Eastern District, um this summer. Um, very excited. So if you want to just give a –a brief professional biography, sort of what you were doing before the pandemic, now, would be awesome.

PG 00:01:20

Great. Okay. Uh, my name is Penny Godbold. And I am an attorney at a law firm Rosen Bien Galvan & Grunfeld and I am counsel for incarcerated people with disabilities in California, um under the Armstrong V. Newsom case. Uh, I've worked at RBGG for about four years, prior to that I spent a little over a decade, um as an attorney at prison law office, where I also represented people with disabilities incarcerated in California, both under the Armstrong case and the Clark v. California case, which covers people with intellectual disabilities in California prisons.

BM 00:02:19

So I guess, given your relationship to, um incarcerated individuals with disabilities, uh maybe we can start there. How have you seen, um that relationship between, I guess the institutions and those individuals, change or respond, um or –or not to COVID? Um, any insights are –are welcome.

PG 00:02:45

Can you repeat the first part? You cut out during the first part of your question. I didn't hear it.

BM 00:02:49

Just with respect to, um the individuals that you've had the most sort of contact working with. Um, how have the institutions that are responsible for their well being, how have they responded or not, I guess, um to COVID? Um, and –and, sort of, how does that align with what you would expect given your experience?

PG 00:03:11

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think that in terms of the institutions that I work with… If we're… I distinguish between the individual prisons and then the headquarters, sort of the administration of all the prisons. I think, from a headquarters perspective, staff were responsive to our requests to protect our clients. On the institution side, the prison –individual prison side, what I saw, uh from my perspective, in talking to clients throughout the state of California was a very, um individualized approach where some institutions were taking more steps than other institutions. And, um, in general, there was a –a sort of a pervasive attitude, I think, in the institutions that there was… sickness and death were inevitable, and little steps that could be taken inside prisons didn't matter much because the problem of the virus spreading was so overwhelming. So that was very distressing as, um, as an attorney and –and as somebody who was talking to people who were incarcerated, because, to me, it seemed like every little bit that could be done to keep people safe would have an impact. Uh maybe it wouldn't stop the spread of the virus, but it might protect individual people, and those individual lives matter.

BM 00:05:14

Right. Um, now, I mean, obviously, uh this is the opinions of your clients, do you think a lot of the resistance from, you know, staff of specific institutions? Um, how much of that had to do with sort of a, the –the general sort of distrust of the virus? Um, and how much did they feel had to do, maybe with them as incarcerated individuals, um in particular, if –if that makes sense? Um.

05:48

Yeah, I think I understand what you're asking. So I think you're asking whether the perception of the clients that I work with was that staff didn't take the virus seriously, maybe for political or personal reasons, um versus they were reluctant to take these steps because they didn't care about the people who were incarcerated in the prisons.

BM 00:06:17

Mmhm.

PG 00:06:18

And I think it's the latter. Um whether or not that's true, I don't know. But definitely, from talking to people incarcerated in California, the perception was that staff were not protecting people, because they were inmates and, uh weren't worthy of protection, their lives didn't matter. And I certainly heard reports of comments like that being made specifically to clients, which was very disturbing.

BM 00:07:04

And I mean, is this, is –is that something you're familiar with having worked, I guess, with, uh mentally and physically handicapped individuals? Um, in the sense of, is there a –a quality of life, a –a calculation going on in –in guards heads, or maybe, um, staff members who we don't necessarily entrust with that level of medical, you know? Um, I guess that's, yeah. Are they –are they playing doctor maybe, in your experience, a little bit more than, um they should? Or, um, does that –does that sort of make sense?

PG 00:07:46

It does make sense. I think, in my experience, yes, there is animus towards incarcerated people, by people who work there. It's not everybody. But it certainly is some staff. And, uh, in the Armstrong case, in particular, just prior to the pandemic, we filed motions of… that very much relate to staff attitudes towards people with disabilities incarcerated in California. And a lot of the evidence that we had in that case included, uh disparaging comments that were made by staff, and the evidence of the state of mind of certain staff to not respect people's lives who are incarcerated in California, and especially people who are vulnerable, which can include people with physical or mental disabilities or intellectual disabilities. Um, also people who are transgender, any sort of category like that. Um, we've found a lot of evidence of that, both at a specific prison, Richard J. Donovan, in San Diego, uh but once we started hearing about it there, it opened our eyes to that happening more widespread at other California prisons.

BM 00:09:29

Um, kind of touching on that I –I only was able to read this sort of recent Armstrong, but I saw mentions of, you know, retaliation, and fears –and fears of further retaliation and, you know, transfers and things being worked out by your team. But I'm also assuming with COVID, that sort of complicated all of the, um ongoing litigation, and I was just sort of wondering if you could speak to, like, what that was like. You know, having this massive case from decades and then oh, here's this new variable, um fascinates me.

PG 00:10:02

Yes, it was a huge new variable, um. for us as attorneys for multiple reasons. Number one is that our class, the Armstrong class, so people in California with certain disabilities, uh fell into the category of people who were at high risk of becoming very sick or dying from the virus. And in fact, the way that has played out in California prisons is that about 50% of all deaths are Armstrong –were Armstrong class members. So, uh we certainly, were very aware of that. We, in fact, lost a–a few people who were witnesses in our litigation. Um, so it was the case, the motion regarding our JD was filed, um as I said, just before the lockdowns and, um over the course of the year, we've lost a handful of witnesses who participated in filing dec–declarations in that motion, which has been incredibly sad, because obviously, we were in a lot of contact with those people, um both in the lead up to the filing of the motion, and then certainly after the pandemic hit. And they were afraid of becoming sick and then became sick, and um, in some cases were hospitalized and passed away. So it's been a–a difficult year, I mean, I'm not going to pretend to be able to understand what that must have been, like, going through it on the inside, but just watching it play out, as an attorney and feeling, uh a little bit helpless to –to stop it, uh has been a trying experience for me professionally. But, you know, to the logistics, there –it has also complicated the logistics of getting access to our clients. We are fortunate under these class actions to have some level of access that I know other attorneys, uh don't have. And so we have been able to arrange to have legal phone calls through CDCR. But frankly, a lot of the issues that we're talking about in our litigation, they involve allegations of very horrific acts committed by staff, uses of force and those sorts of things. And so there's a lot of reasons why it's much better to have a face to face conversation with people and –and the phone doesn't quite cut it. Um and, you know, some of those reasons are just because they are sensitive topics, and you really want to, you know, be able to, th–through your words and your facial expressions, be able to empathize with the person that you're sitting across from and hearing the story from. Um, and, you know, establish some trust, which isn't very possible over the phone, not as possible. And then also, you know, people are very rightfully worried about retaliation, and it's much harder to feel secure. If you're in prison, and you're talking over a phone line, um then if you're able to sort of whisper in a, what, you know, you can visually see is a –a confidential room setting. So it's –it's been difficult to establish trust and maintain contact with some of our clients, for multiple reasons during the pandemic.

BM 00:14:18

Uh yeah, it was so surreal, having to, you know, schedule video conferences with, uh our clients, and– when I was working with San Diego, and then, you know, having like the –the sort of connection be at the, uh behest of some guard who is, you know, ordering or is, you know, answering to someone else's boss, and, you know, isn't all of these other things and it's like, we just want to talk, you know, we just need to do this. Um.

PG 00:14:46

Yeah. In –in prison, I don't understand the way this works, but at some prisons, in the prison in San Diego, for example, where a number of our –our clients and witnesses to our current litigation are, the system for conducting, um confidential phone calls is to put the incarcerated person in what is supposed to be a confidential room. Meanwhile, the staff member is in another area of the institution, usually, you know, out–outside of the room at a podium or a desk or something. But that staff member controls the call.

BM 00:15:31

Yeah.

PG 00:15:32

So the call is placed to me, and then, you know, it goes through the staff person to the incarcerated person. And we have to trust, not–n–neither of us can see, if the staff person has actually hung up the phone, sometimes you hear a click, but who knows whether they're actually listening. So it's been, um and there have been a lot of acts of retaliation against our clients. Um, and so people are really worried to talk under those conditions. Um, we have not had the experience of doing a lot of video interviews, that's not been something that's been made available to us with people in, uh incarcerated in the prison system, with the exception of, uh sign language users and some other people that require video for communication. But for most of them, it's been these confidential phone calls

BM 00:16:34

(the not) and just getting someone to trust you without, you know, looking in their eyes and things is, um it’s… and –and just the –the like, I guess, I –I worry a lot about the mental health effects of this on just any human being, you know, uh regardless of –of any sort of disability. Um, and –and just what, how do you feel, I guess, has this helped you or –or re– helped– made you reevaluate your sort of role as, um an attorney or as a practitioner in the sort of, um like what you bring to the equation beyond just legal knowledge and experience, if that makes sense? Um, how have you sort of felt your role in the system change or, um reflected upon it differently?

PG 00:17:29

Well, I think, uh, it remains to be seen because I feel like I'm still in the thick of it right now. But I can definitely say that I have always looked at my role as an attorney as being responsible for sometimes being maybe the first attorney that has listened to people and really listened to try to understand from their perspective and –and really tried to not impose my own, you know, idea of what's happening with a person. And so what that has meant during the pandemic has been that I really have to put aside what feels like urgent information that I want to hear from the client, um because I want to report it to CDCR and try to make improvements, and instead put that aside in some cases and just listen, uh even more than non pandemic times to what it feels like on the ground in prison, to be very scared and to see your friends getting sick and dying around you. And feeling like you have these ideas about little things that can be done, little changes that seem very common sense and obvious that staff and your prison aren't doing. And you just want to vent and tell somebody, you don't understand why the food line is run this way, and they let everybody out on the tier at the same time. And it's not clear who’s COVID positive and negative and maybe they are keeping people safe, but they haven't told anybody that, so everybody's, you know, so afraid to go out. Um, and, you know, rather than stepping in and trying to help people understand how that works, in terms of what the policies are, what the requirements are, what the rules are, what I can do to help you. You know, no– people don't want to hear that. They just want to tell somebody what's going on, because it's really scary.

BM 00:20:09

Yeah.

PG 00:20:10

So, in that sense, my role has changed into one of, really, being important to listen to people.

20:19

Awesome. Do you feel, I mean, I’m –I'm sure you saw horrific things or heard horrific things, you know, in the –in the –the time that you worked in prisons before the pandemic, because they were, you know, not necessarily a nice place then. Do you feel that the, um coping strategies or –or, uh whatever, I guess you might want to call it, but the ways that you sort of had dealt with all of these things were equipped to deal with COVID? Is– have you developed new strategies or, um sort of anything? As someone going into, you know, the law that's always –always on my mind. How do we deal with some of this horrible things? And now, when it's another element, you know,

PG 00:21:04

Yeah. Um, I –I think there's a lot of literature out there about how to deal… how to deal. Right, you know, carving out time for yourself, taking care of yourself, maintaining your own sense of your life being rooted in what's happening around you, as opposed to what's happening with your clients, that –that's all out there. And it's fine and –and well, and I read it, and I believe in it, I think it does work. Um.

BM 00:21:42

Mindful of it,

PG 00:21:43

I'm very mindful of it. Have I ever actually been able to employ some of those things? Sometimes I am, you know, when there's like a very predictable baseline level of work to do. Um, pre pandemic, I can –I can manage it. And one of the ways that I have managed it for a decade is by, um trying to work part time, and frankly, I realize that that is not a financial option for most people. And I’m –I'm fortunate that it is for me. Um, so I wouldn't put that out there as, you know, this is the solution. But what it does for me, because I have kids, and uh I am, you know, carpooling and doing all of those things, it forces me to take time to do other things and to get sucked into other life priorities, which I think you can do working full time also. I am personally not that able to do that. And I have been working full time, um in the lead up to filing our motions and then during the pandemic, and I haven't been able to get back to what is, for me, a more manageable balance. So it's hard for me to tell whether it's the subject matter in the intensity of the issues that we've been dealing with the pandemic or just this overall imbalance that I have in my professional personal life right now. Um, that has been the problem. I–I think it's the pandemic. I mean, I go to sleep at night, you know, having talked to clients that are hospitalized, and it–it's like, how do you just shut that off, and you can't do that. Um, and it's the same way that I feel, frankly, about clients that are being retaliated against about, you know, regarding the staff misconduct case. I mean, you go to sleep at night, knowing that you're laying here in this comfortable, safe place, and somebody else is not and that's really hard to deal with. So I don't know, I don't have a good solution for how other people should manage it. But I do think that a time balance is –is the way to do it. You know, managing– making sure that you have enough free time in your life that you actually have to shut the work down and put it aside.

BM 00:24:32

I got –I got a pandemic dog so I was like…

PG 00:24:36

I see your pandemic dog. Aww

BM 00:24:38

He’s been quite –quite the –the blessing, little valley rescue.

PG 00:24:43

Oh, yeah. Um, I think– I have two dogs. And that's a good, like they make you, you have to stop and go (on a walk)

BM 00:24:51

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

PG 00:24:52

You have to, like, and then something happens in your brain when you do that. And you're like, oh, it's actually nice outside. Oh

BM 00:25:00

Yeah.

PG 00:25:01

Flowers are blooming, I guess it's almost spring. And you know if–

BM 00:25:04

Yeah, yeah yeah. It’s just nice to, you know, you don't know anything about federal courts, do you? And just like nope, I'm happy.

PG 00:25:10

Right? Yeah. Good.

BM 00:25:12

Do you –do you feel like you've had any shifts in perspective on prison law or sort of the carceral state or anything in general? Um, any, you know, yeah, I guess just response to COVID, um in that sort of big topic since?

PG 00:25:33

Yeah. I mean, I –I certainly lean towards abolition anyway.

BM 00:25:44

Right, yeah.

PG 00:25:45

But um, this has made it even more clear to me that just prisons are not the places to warehouse people. We can't do that safely during a pandemic. We shouldn't do it anyway because we can't safely do it for people, especially people with disabilities, people with mental mental health issues. It causes mental health issues, it causes disability and poor health in people. So we're creating more problems, um than I think that we're fixing by this system. Um, but that has certainly been magnified during the pandemic.

BM 00:26:35

Do you see any, um hope for the pandemic exposing, sort of, faults that maybe you already knew are there but you know, the wider public didn't know about? Will this… is there potentiality for that, you think or?

PG 00:26:53

I definitely think there's potential. There has certainly been, um widespread reporting on some huge missteps, that CDCR, for example, has made during the pandemic. And I think, you know, the interesting thing about it, as somebody who has done this sort of work with CDCR, for a long time, it's not a shock to me that you have very high level officials who are hard working, earnest people making what they believe are good decisions about how to protect people in prisons. And then you have the reality of what goes on on the ground. And you, you know, have this disconnect between those two things. And that has always been obvious to me, um because I do spend a lot of time negotiating with CDCR officials, and, um, we often see eye to eye on things, how things should be done. Um, but the reality of actually putting those things into practice is a totally different situation. And that's the problem with prison systems, um generally. And, you know, I think the pandemic has exposed that on, not just in the prison system, but I mean, you look at vaccine distribution in the community. It's not, um it's –it's not set up to –to work well. And there's a lot of analogies between what's happening, you know, with the governor, and then what actually gets put on the ground implemented as far as counties and distribution. It's this –it's, I think, part of the same problem.

BM 00:28:55

I’m trying to think what else? I guess, is there anything, um that you would like, sort of on the record, um or for, you know, future researchers, future law students that are, you know, doing their substantial writing paper on, you know, the experience of learning during the pandemic or, uh anything really? Uh, yeah. Anything to offer?

PG 00:29:17

I think it's already being done. But I–I don't think what I have to say or what prison officials who are running things have to say, is very important. I mean, I think that what's really important is, you know, the perspective of the people incarcerated and what actually happened. And so, um, I would just continue to encourage people to do what's the work that's already being done to –to make those stories heard. And I think it's also interesting… I–I haven't talked to a lot of people who work for CDCR as correctional officers, I–I don't have the ability to do that with my job. But I do follow some social media accounts where things get posted. And I think it's really, um you know, that there's an interesting story there, too. There's a reason why there's a big disconnect between my clients and people who are incarcerated in California, what's going on, and –and people who work there, and I think it was a very horrible, scary thing for both people to– both sides, if you want to put them on opposite sides, um to witness and experience. And, um, I would be interested to hear more from people who worked in that environment and to –to find out, you know, what is behind the initial question, you just asked about attitudes towards the virus in prison? And what you know, did people feel like they should try to help stop this thing from spreading? Did they feel, you know, what –what happened? What– I know what happened and what my clients think, I'm –I'm curious to hear what happened from the perspective of people actually working in some of these housing units.

BM 00:31:36

I guess, kind of going off of that, in –in the past when you've had staff incidents, you know, that have been horrific, or –or –or warranted, you know, prisoners moving and –and things like that. Uh, do you get the sense, I mean, I–I doubt you have the idea that it's a, you know, cases of bad apples. But does it feel like it is something in the sort of correctional officer… just in the same way that, you know, police forces have been shown to be, you know, violent and problematic? Is there something in that –that atmosphere that you think, um, predicated sort of the –the COVID response?

PG 00:32:17

I do. Um, and I think it is the pervasive attitude. I do think there are bad apples, I think, there are very bad apples in the system. And I–I don't think that bad app– you know, I–I–I don't think that the majority of people that work in the system fall into that category, obviously. But I do think that pervasive attitude is that it's us versus them. And that even if you want to do the right thing, I think if your coworkers see you doing the right thing, there– I have heard reports of retaliation. We've filed in our motion reports of retaliation from employees and –and former employees who felt like they were not able to do their jobs, which they perceived as providing certain mental health services to incarcerated people, um because there was this pervasive attitude of, um, well they refer to it as thug huggers and stuff like that. There's–

BM 00:33:33

Oh wow okay. Sort of a –a demonizing of –of going soft on the –on the incarcerated or something?

PG 00:33:41

Yep.

BM 00:33:43

I– Yeah. I mean, I can't, you know, say I'm surprised but it is just, uh hard –hard to hear sometimes. Um,

PG 00:33:52

Yeah, I think that that's –that gets at the heart of the problem. Very many people work in these prisons. Right. And so when that's the –the pervasive attitude, um even when you're trying to do the right thing, if that's the risk of getting labeled as a –as a –somebody who's sympathetic to or what, you know, whatever, incarcerated people, um you're –you're never –you're certainly never going to have compliance with some of these ADA cases, because they depend on staff, um being empathetic to and understanding, providing, right, compassionate and –and providing some accommodations for people with disabilities. So those two things are at odds.

BM 00:34:51

Yeah, um, I–I'm thinking you know, if there –if you see any sort of connection in being able to point to COVID as a very tangible virus hard science, um, and the sort of medical issues before of –of handicaps of various, sorts of, um types. Do you think that, uh society can maybe learn from, um COVID behind bars to better understand the situation of people with medical needs behind bars, um, I guess is the question.

PG 00:35:34

Well, I hope so. I mean, I hope that something good or positive can come from the death and sickness and destruction that has played out in prisons. And it's possible that it will be that people will realize, um, that there's –there's people, names, faces, life stories, behind these numbers. Um, I mean, I think that's a challenge with the pandemic generally. These numbers are massive, numbers of deaths outside of prison numbers, of deaths of people in prison. But when you dig down and hear about some of the stories, I mean, all of the stories are tragic. But there are some that I think can help demonstrate for people who don't work with people in prison that, you know, this –this is the face and the story behind the person who died. Um, there was one such story in The, um, New York Times about a person in California who had really gone out of his way to help people with disabilities in a prison here. He was a wheelchair pusher and a friend to a lot of people with disabilities and was helping them during the pandemic. And, um, as a result of that, you know, we –he thinks –his family –his –he thought and his family thinks that's how he contracted the virus, from helping people. And he died. Um, and just, you know, hearing about stories like that, it's, uh, really touching. And I think it puts a –a –some perspective on, you know, wh–who was actually incarcerated, and –and what… There's this public perception of what is –an –an inmate is and, um you know, that's never played out through the course of my work. Um, and so I–I hope that some of the pandemic might bring some of these stories out, and –and perhaps change public perception of who's in prison.

BM 00:38:03

Awesome. Um, I mean, do you have any questions for me or?

PG 00:38:08

I don't think so. I think, um no, this is great. I think, you know, really appreciate that you guys are doing this and, uh look forward to seeing it on the website. And good luck with your career in public defending, it sounds like, hopefully.

BM 00:38:28

Yeah, yeah, I like that, you know, for now, and yeah, I'm very interested in maybe eventually, you know, going into the class action side of –of, let's get some, you know, injunctions going and–

PG 00:38:40

Yeah definitely.

BM 00:38:41

more people (and stuff). But uh, so much for your time.

PG 00:38:45

Yeah, were you in the um– you said federal defenders this–

BM 00:38:50

This summer, yeah.

PG 00:38:51

In San Diego by any chance?

BM 00:38:52

Eastern District, actually.

PG 00:38:53

Okay.

BM 00:38:54

Um, so, yeah, I'm –I'm, uh, out from –out east, so like, I'm kind of a– I love San Diego, um, and sort of have roots there. But like –the –during the pandemic, when it first started, I just drove up the side of the Sierras, you know, my dog and I in a tent kind of thing and was like, mind blown, you know, desert mountains and, yeah.

PG 00:39:16

California is incredible. Yeah.

BM 00:39:20

Um, oh, yeah. I did see you went to Appalachian State.

PG 00:39:22

I did.

BM 00:39:23

I am a big Appalachian Trail fan, like Georgia, Florida boy, so I was–

PG 00:39:27

Nice.

BM 00:39:28

–been to Boone a few times.

PG 00:39:31

Oh my god, that's awesome. Nobody ever knows where that is. And um, yeah. I, uh, I haven't been– I've been back once since I graduated. I'm sure it's very different now. But lots– spent a lot of time hiking on the Appalachian Trail–

BM 00:39:47

It’s amazing out there.

PG 00:39:48

–and want to get back. Yeah. Have you done –did you do the Pacific Coast Trail out here?

BM 0039:52

I haven't –I've done little segments of it, um like most of what's you know, down in San Diego County, but, uh, I'm excited. My friend who through hiked the Appalachian Trail is moving. She just got a job at Caltech so I'm gonna be like, take me, you know.

PG 00:40:07

Wow.

BM 00:40:08

I–I like her because she's the, you know, she's like the– we need this many liters of water and–

PG 00:40:12

Yeah.

BM 00:40:13

–no Bailey, you can't have any more water, you know? And I'm like, okay, I’ll listen.

PG 00:40:15

That is the stuff that I don't, you know, don't have time to figure out and I don't even think I'd be good at figuring that stuff out. I want somebody to do that for me.

BM 00:40:24

Yeah.

PG 00:40:25

And I'll put the pack on and–

BM 00:40:27

Yeah, right.

PG 00:40:28

–strap up and go. So maybe in the future.

BM 00:40:32

Right, yeah.

PG 00:40:33

Good luck to you. Good talking to you. And um yeah, and I'm sure our paths will cross again at some point.

BM 00:40:41

Yeah, I hope so. Once we sort of have this, um the website all like figured out and things, I was planning to reach out to people I've interviewed and say, hey, you know, if you want to check it out, that kind of thing.

PG 00:40:51

Cool, yeah.

BM 00:40:52

Um, but the –the –the project itself is –is amazing. Um and a great resource if you just happen to, you know, need numbers or something.

PG 00:41:01

Yeah, I’ve –I’ve –I’m familiar with it. And I'm on the listserv that Sharon posts on.

BM 00:41:07

Okay. Yeah.

PG 00:41:08

-- some of the stuff. It's really cool that you guys are doing that.

BM 00:41:11

Well, thank you. Have a great rest of your day.

PG 00:41:14

Thanks.