[00:09]

LJ: And there we go. Um so hello, my name is Lily Johnson with the UCLA law COVID-19 Behind Bars data project. Um I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we're about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online, or discussed in posts on our website or other published writings. I want our conversation to flow freely and I realize that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it now at the end of the interview, or later on after further reflection, we are happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and the recording. Um so yeah, uh take it away.

[01:12]

MP: So I'm Michael Poreda. Um, before the COVID 19 pandemic, I basically was doing what I'm doing now. Um, I am a civil rights litigator, primarily. I'm a civil litigator, and most of that is civil rights, um plaintiff side Civil Rights in New Jersey. Uh my offices in Somerville. Um I'm of counsel, to Wronko Loewen Benucci, which is a law firm that mostly does criminal law. Um and I do a lot of civil rights litigation. So there is a certain amount of uh symbiotic- there’s some, some symbiosis there. Um, I started getting involved with prison litigation um on plaintiffs side, around two years ago. Um I had just started basically my own practice. And I did a pro bono case for um a man who - he went to my brother's synagogue, and he uh had sort of a questionable parole violation, like it wasn't clear that he had violated his parole. So I did that pro bono, and I let him know that I was interested in representing civil rights plaintiffs because I had done it on the defense side in the past, and also I actually had never done prison litigation defense side, but I had done um when I was in law school in a prison clinic, I had done plaintiff side prison litigation. Um and uh everybody in prison has basically had their civil rights violated in one way or another, maybe not in a compensable way, but lots and lots of people came forward. Um, and so I, you know, currently manage about, well as of today 24 um Prison litigations, and uh they're all individual plaintiffs. Um and um some of those clients or even some prospective clients have come forward and told me about what they have gone through during COVID-19. Um, New Jersey did take action, um to try to alleviate the burden of COVID-19 in prison. They let especially in jails, they let a lot of people out. Um in prison, they did pass a rule that let out um certain people based on like age and medical condition. Um, it wasn't terribly generous, though, I will tell you, like I have a client who like had many health problems, one of which was asthma, he was not let out. Um, he whatever, what they did get was a lot of them got eight months of credit. There was something called a um health emergency credit. So people who were like within a year of the end of their sentence, got eight months um off their sentence. And I actually had a bunch of clients who were released specifically on November 4, um as a like that credit hit. So that was one way that they thinned the population out of the prisons. Um but what happens for the people that are still there has been pretty bad I'd say. I don't I mean, I, I do see that the prisoners have masks. A lot of times, they're too small, like I will go and visit people and the mask doesn't even cover their nose. Um I doubt that those masks are being washed very much. Uh I don't know that. That's just my suspicion, um, based on like, the general level of health in that prison. Um Rutgers University is the health provider for the all the New Jersey state prisons. Um and there was some article published years ago that said like, oh, you know, these, these, um non, not for profit, Correctional Health um providers do a better job than their for profit counterparts. Um I tend to not believe that, um, simply because I find that um the health system is horrible in that prison. Um I'm sure it's even worse in other states. Um, I don't, and I mean, some of this is also coming from conversations I've had with other um prison rights litigators, uh particularly Massachusetts where they have the same thing. Um I've been in contact with somebody there who also felt that like the UMass system there is really no better than the the private providers. Um, so some of the stories, uh I have one client who um got COVID, and he believes he knows where. What happened was there was a van where they were, they were transporting prisoners to a hospital, um and they had COVID. And those vans, the vans that they used to transport prisoners in New Jersey, and probably everywhere else are extremely unsafe and uncomfortable. Um, I mean, the biggest prison verdict I've ever found involved a car accident or an accident involving one of those vans. It was in California, $27 million dollars, quadriplegic. Because what they do is they, um they put them on these tiny seats, so that they can't really like hold their balance with their bottoms. They have to like use their feet to hold their balance, especially as the the truck like wobbles or short starts, stops short, and their hands are shackled and put into a box so that they can't, like move their hands and they their ankles are shackled. Um, so a lot of people fall off the seats. If the car stops short, they'll go flying. Anyway, if you're hurt or sick, this is like, unbelievable. Um and so people were throwing up and bleeding, um spitting up all over this truck. And so when the van came back, they forced my client and four others to clean it out without any PPE. Um and they told them that if they refuse, they be put in lockup. So they did it, and my client got COVID. Um he would like to sue for that. And he can't, because he did not suffer any permanent damage. Um, and that's just, you know, kind of one of the annoying things is like, because of all these tort reform acts, um there's a lot of, I guess, sort of goodwill towards very broad, systematic prison reform, but there isn't very much support for trying to fight individual battles, even where they really should be fought. And like, I think his case is a prime example of like, somebody should sue the prison for doing that. Like, yeah, it's a public burden, maybe he's only going to get $30 in pain and suffering, but like, the state should have to go through that so that they think twice before they do things like this, at least that's how I look at it. Um, anyway, like, I'm not taking his case on, because I'm in private practice, and it's already very financially burdensome to represent a lot of prison clients. Um it’s just something I've kind of learned the hard way. Um but yeah, I think um that was uh one story that really bothered me. Um, [another] case was they put a bunch of guys into quarantine in a section and there was some kind of like insurrection or riot. I don't think it was that bad. I can't remember the details, because I ultimately did not represent this client, but he told me when um I spoke to him. Um, so there was some kind of like, riot in the section. And what they ended up doing was just punishing everybody in the section and putting them to (Ad Seg) [segregated housing] and like my client, or my potential client was sleeping during the whole thing. Like he didn't get out of bed. He's an old man. And he still like was punished for it. Um that goes on a lot in prison where they they sort of punish people in order to set an example or intimidate instead of like to punish bad behavior. Um I have a case right now where we're going after an officer in one of the prisons who was um punishing people randomly for trying to sneak suboxone out of the suboxone clinic. Which actually it is a problem in these prisons that um lots of people are getting suboxone therapy. It's a sublingual therapy. So some, uh a nurse puts the pill under their tongue and they wait till it dissolves, and then they go back. So there is a problem where people will take the pills out of their mouth and then try to sell them. Um and so there is a problem. It's been reported that there is like this one officer who wrote like 40 people up for this in a month, which is like way higher than anywhere else. So like he was probably under some kind of pressure to to do this. I think that there's there's some of my suspicion with the bad health care in prison is actually that it's coming from the Department of Corrections administration or like high level correctional officers. Um, my impression of the doctors so far has not been bad. Like I don't think the individual doctors are so bad, but my impression has been that there is a lot of pressure from the correctional authorities to under treat and ignore and neglect [the inmates]. Um and I think, you know, that's one of the things that bothers me. Um, I have another client who, let me think. So I talked to you about three of them, there was a fourth one, I have a one client who's just very ill. He has (sickle cell) disease. He's (sick) all the time. Um he actually was hospitalized because they thought he had COVID because he was having trouble breathing. It turned out, he just had a terrible lung infection caused by negligent cleaning of a chest tube he had. Um, and it was, I mean, my impression is that I haven't seen the records from the hospital, but it sounds like he almost died. Um and he was not let out of prison or put on medical furlough or anything. And uh I have a civil case with him. So I'm hoping that will settle and then we're going to use the money to try to get him a medical furlough. Um and some of that is like COVID is definitely dangerous for him. Um you know, right now, if you go online, and there's all these like vaccine, um checkboxes, like things that will make you eligible, like sickle cell disease is one of them. So you know, he's got a very bad case of it. And uh so yeah, there, there was nothing, nothing was done for him. Um I have another client who also has a lung problem that, uh he has lung damage from having been beaten up by another inmate. Um and also the damage was also caused by not treating it. Uh he was running around, and this was in 20, was this during COVID? I think this actually was during COVID. So during COVID he, um, yeah, it was May 2020. So during COVID, uh he got beaten up by a mentally ill inmate, and was trying to get attention that he couldn't breathe and was having problems breathing. And he was ignored and ignored and ignored. And then like two months went by, and then he collapsed and they brought him to the hospital, pumped five or three liters of blood out of his lungs. Uh there were three operations. One was to take the blood out of his lungs. One was to um, uh remove embolisms from his lungs, and then one was to try to like repair the lung passageway. Anyway, his lungs are permanently damaged. Um he'll never be able to like play sports again. Um and despite the breathing problems, he was not let out early. Um he is getting out soon, like he does max out this month actually. But he did not get any special treatment even though he had all these lung problems. So, um, you know, the bottom line is that uh and none of these I'm trying to think if any of these guys were like dangerous. Um yeah, I mean, I don't think so. Especially the first guy told you about with the asthma. Um, you know, I felt kind of bad. Like he's been labeled as dangerous, but like it said like he's in jail for carjacking. But like if you actually listen to the story of what happened, it was like a classic case of like, you know, police causing a mental health crisis and then treating it as a criminal offense instead of (ism). It was like a typical like defund the police argument where he had been beaten up by police before and he's got mental health issues and he had a psychotic break when police confronted him in front of a supermarket and like, like in a psychotic trance, I guess he you know, ran to a car and like, jumped in it and drove away, like 90 feet and then crashed the car and was arrested. So, um but he's an old man with that like, can barely walk. So I didn't think he was dangerous. Um, guy with sickle cell disease. Uh, yeah, I mean, he's, he's, he's committed some I would say he's gotten in trouble a lot is what I'll say. Like he he's made some bad choices. You know, I he's so sick I don't know if he's gonna continue to make bad choices when he gets out. But um you know, I often thought he should have just been put in a hospital board or something because he's just sick all the time. Um, and then the guy in the riot, I'm actually I don't can't remember what he did wrong and the guy who had to clean up um, he's never committed a violent crime. Um although, yeah, he's he's in jail for armed robbery but the circumstances surrounding that are kind of ridiculous. Like a lot of times prosecutor prosecutors will try to make a crime sound as bad as they can. Um so he's in for armed robbery because some police report said that, like he, what happened was he he stole a cash register. He stole the cash register because of um poverty. But um, they said that he um was like sticking his I don't know if you can see me doing this, but that he was like sticking his finger under his shirt like this [showing finger under his shirt]. That's what the police report said. However, the victim of the crime then went on the stand and said that that wasn't true. So if he didn't do that, then it's not armed robbery. Anyway, he was convicted for armed robbery, nine year sentence. Um he has a few. He's been in jail (a few) times all for like nonviolent robberies, all poverty related. Um so I don't think he's a super dangerous guy. Um anyway, you know, he's not vulnerable either. But I thought that what they did to him was pretty horrible. And, you know, is definitely, you know, that's the kind of thing where I feel like, uh you know, sometimes the Civil Rights statutes outside of prison, you can sue for something like that. And a lawyer will take it on, because there's attorneys fees. So even though there might not be much damage, like you were sick for a week, what's that worth, um, you know, the attorney gets paid. So with the PLRA, the Prison Litigation Reform Act, they try to discourage lawyers from taking these cases on um because your compensation as a lawyer is limited to a certain percentage of the recovery. So if you have a client, who wins $1 In a jury verdict, the lawyer only gets paid as much as $1.50 um because you can only make like, I think 150% of what the reward is. Um so that's glorious tort reform. Um, and yeah. Um I'm trying to think,

[16:21]

LJ: I have a, actually, a quick question, if I can get in here.

[16:24]

MP: Sure.

[16:25]

LJ: I appreciate all your conversation on the present injustice, and I'm curious of how COVID specifically has changed your role as an advocate, um in terms of conversations with those

[16:37]

MP: Yeah.

[16:38]

LJ: that are currently incarcerated, um even beyond just uh the different (litigations being brought).

[16:44]

MP: So, I mean, one thing that I was hoping I um, the ACLU uh made a senior fellow position to do their COVID-19 litigation, which is mostly based on trying to get people out of prison, trying to thin prison populations. Um, and that's something that I think is super important. It's hard to do it as, like, as a, as somebody who is in private practice, it's very hard to get that involved with things like that, because there's no financial incentive. Um like, unfortunately, like, because of tort reform laws, um, you know, private attorneys are really sort of scared out of prison. And I'll say, even with COVID, one of the things I guess it made me think of, I don't know, if it changed what I did. But I got lots of, you know, requests for ‘I want help with COVID, because this happened, and that happened’. Um and I've gotten a lot of requests about COVID. And I can't remember, honestly, like, I don't remember many of them, because, you know, my perception of it was like, this is unprecedented. Like, yes, this was probably negligent. But like, how can you opine on the standard of care if there's no, if this is unprecedented, like where are you going to get an expert, that's gonna say, um you know, putting people in single cells that are right next to each other anyway, with a common air vent is, is breach of the standard of care. Like, nobody knows what the standard of care is. So I basically took a position that I was not taking on any COVID cases, period, um unless there was severe bodily injury or death. Um and whatever they did was, like, outrageously wrong. Like if my client was cleaning that truck, you know, had a heart attack or stroke. Yeah, I would take that because you don't need to, like I think even even though this is unprecedented, like, you know, if there's a highly contagious disease, you shouldn't be cleaning up bodily fluids of sick people without PPE. Um, but he didn't, you know, (he) damages so I didn't take the case. So I haven't had a single person approach me with a COVID case that I thought was worth taking a, you know, a risk on, unfortunately. Um and a lot of that really does fall on not-for- profits. You know, one of the things I also think about COVID, and the prison reform is that, you know, one of the issues has been just trying to reduce prison populations. And this has been in some ways, like the best thing for that because even though it's not something I work on specifically, it's something I'm attuned to that I know, like the ACLU is working on it and even you know, the New Jersey legislature is behind it, like they are trying to thin populations out um and find alternatives to incarceration. Um I know in and this is near you actually, the the biggest mental health facility in the country is the Twin Towers Jail in Los Angeles. And because of COVID, they did actually remove a lot of people and I think they decided that, like certain categories of people, were going to be guaranteed housing in a group home for the rest of their lives, um, rather than be put back in jail because keeping a mentally ill person who might be even criminally, you know, have criminal inclinations, um it's cheaper to keep them in a group home and monitor their medication and their life there than it is to hold them in prison. Because, you know, a lot of these people what's gonna happen like, uh, you know, some most people with schizophrenia, for example, like, they may do sort of things like, you know, I heard one case, and this was a twin towers case, like, the guy was like setting a fire in a garbage can behind his house, and like, he ended up in jail for this. And it was just because like, he was refusing his meds. Uh and his grand, I think his grandmother was the reason he ended up in jail is because she called the police because she wanted him to go to hospital. Well, they didn't take him to the hospital, they took him to jail. Um and, like, it's the kind of thing where (you're) so much of prison is caused by health issues, and mental health issues, especially. But I was (saving), I had the client who was cleaning out the van. I mean, he was poor to begin with. And then he developed a um disability, like a physical disability, because he needed a hip replacement. And sort of the combination of like, the untreated pain and the poverty, like drove him to use street drugs and commit crimes, and then gets in jail where like, they continue to not take care of the hip problem, which is, you know, that's I'm, I'm representing him, because like, they did not replace his hip, uh or at least the jail he was in for two years to not replace his hip. Um which, you know, he needed it. And um he, like, they knew that he needed it. But um, anyway, um, if you can get social services to help people who are likely to commit crimes, because they're sick or desperate. Like, that's so much cheaper than having all this security. Um like, when you live in in a jail, there's so much like physical restraint, and all of that physical restraint is extremely costly. Um you know, as the outset, like, you've got to pay all these prison guards. Um and these relationships between the guards and the inmates are volatile, and are expensive, because they cause lots of litigation as they and they should. And but you know, there's just if there's less of this sort of penal attitude, you know, it's going to reduce costs, and just create better outcomes for everyone. And I think COVID has helped us see that, because we we know like, it's really dangerous to keep all these people in jail. So it's sort of given (us opportunities) to like, try these things. I think Americans are very hesitant to, um it sounds terrible, but like, help people in need as a government program. I mean, you know, we lag behind, like every developed country in terms of social programs, because we think there's some moral, morally horrible thing about giving somebody who has a problem, some help. Um and we also love to stigmatize people in prison. Like, we think if you're in jail, you're horrible. And like, even, you know, Democrats, I know, like, why do you do that work? You're dealing with horrible people who probably deserve what they got and I'm like, no, well, some of them deserve to have their liberty taken away. But I don't think they deserve to be beaten up for no reason. Um or because they like, you know, looked at somebody's girlfriend the wrong way. I gotta (keep like) you know, one guy got beaten up, because he looked at or he said something to a female guard. And that female guard had a guard who was her boyfriend, and she told her boyfriend to beat up my client. So, um, yeah, it's just, there’s stupid, so much stupid stuff like that, um, and yes, some of its gonna go on. And I had one prospective client who was a god awful person. And, you know, I don't feel bad for him, because, and he's one of the few where like, he's really just an evil person and deserves to be in jail. But there are very few people like that. And if you put if you only left the people like that in jail, the jails would be much smaller, and there’d be much fewer problems. Um I mean, I feel like, I'm just saying the same thing over and over again. I think COVID has given us an impetus to overcome our American hesitance to help people and to find alternatives to incarceration. Um and I mean, I hopefully, the one thing we do like is we like saving money, and we'll realize that actually, you know, keeping people in group homes, uh making sure they have their medication, um not bringing police to the scene of an incident, but a psychologist instead is cheaper. Um and I hope that COVID makes us realize that uh as a nation.

[24:25]

LJ: I'm curious about your visits uh during the (prison) during COVID. You mentioned witnessing like masks, that seemed too small. Um but because I know at a in a lot of states you can’t even visit during this time.

[24:41]

MP: Oh, you broke up, (you can’t where you said that this you can't do and most prisons)?

[24:47]

LJ: Uh that visitation is suspended?

[24:49]

MP:Oh, yes. Um, so,

[24:51]

LJ: (can you tell us a bit about) your experience whether over the telephone video calls?

[24:55]

MP: Yeah.

[24:56]

LJ: (Now this can work)

[24:57]

MP: I definitely expanded my use of telephone calls during COVID, um, and I have still gone in, um. I did not go in, during the worst of like the beginning of the pandemic, uh like March April, May I did not go in. I think I resumed going in during the summer. I think they they cut off all visitation but no, they never cut off legal visits, you were always allowed to see a lawyer. So I think even in like, the summer, you were not allowed to visit. Eventually, actually one of the prisons, I know, organized outdoor visits um during the summer. So I guess, you know, in that sense, that was good. Um, that prison is quite far from me. I try never to go there because it takes me all day to go there. Uh it's called South Wood State Prison. It's the biggest prison in New Jersey. Um it's the nicest prison in New Jersey, but it's like, the other end of the state. So I try not to go there much. Um and I had no, did I go there during COVID? Yeah, I did go there once during COVID. Um, and yeah, they never cut off legal visits. Um but I do use phone calls. I mean, one of the things about COVID with the legal profession, it's gonna save us so much time, because everyone's gonna realize there's so many things that we did, in person that can be done (by) zoom or over the phone um that we don't need to appear for. And that's really good. Um, but sometimes, like I needed to go see a prison, I needed to go to prison because I needed to, sometimes like those phone legal phone calls are not totally confidential. They're mostly confidential. But some of my clients did not want to, um like even talk over the phone about certain things like they wanted to be in a room. So that caused some visits. Um sometimes I had to get, notarize things. And so like, as a lawyer, you can notarize in (them)[prisons]. So I would go there to do that. Um I'm trying to think what else. I've definitely cut back on my visitation. But, um, yeah, in some ways, the visiting wasn't a whole lot different. Like you'd go, they would take your temperature, give you a mask. Um I would always wear two masks. Um, I felt a little emboldened, I had COVID antibodies, um, I probably got COVID like the middle or end of March last year, like right at the beginning of the pandemic. I wasn't tested for it, because they were not testing non-critical patients at the time. But then a few months later, I had a blood test, and I had the antibodies. So I was a little a little bold about it, particularly as the pandemic got less worse. Um, and, uh yeah, so I wouldn't say that it changed a whole lot. Um I mean, one of the things that it has done is sometimes clients were in quarantine. So like, I couldn't visit them because they were in quarantine, or, um or they even couldn't come to the phone because of quarantine. So there were definitely some disruptions from it, um, but not terrible. Um you know, is as bad as the pandemic was, I feel like for prison litigation, it's actually been a good thing, in that I think it's going to reduce the number of people in prison. I think it's really going to help us reform prison, because we're going to realize, like, hey, we don't really need to keep all these people in here. Um we can put them on home arrest, we can put them in mental health facilities, like there's just other less restrictive environments, we can put people in. And then too, uh there's going to be a lot of like, not necessary travel, um taken out that we realized, oh we can do certain things by video call or phone call. Um and that more has to do not so much with visiting clients, but um litigating cases that, you know, I don't need to drive to Camden for Case Management Conference, which is like a two hour drive. Like we can do the Case Management Conference over the phone. Um or even a settlement conference. Like we don't need to do it in person, like we can do a lot of stuff over the phone. That saves us a lot of time, um which saves us money and saves the clients money saves everyone money, it's just a saving. So I think as bad as the pandemic was um I think for the practice of law it's overall a, particularly of prison law, it's going to be a good thing.

[29:19]

LJ: Uh a question I like to ask is because this is the side where we're having conversation with the with advocates and lawyers um of how you have been handling the pandemic in dealing with this work of obviously this um civil rights litigation you did before the pandemic but just kind of it being heightened in this uh turbulent time.

[29:41]

MP: Well, um, so it's interesting not, it didn't change. It didn't change a whole lot for me. Um, I didn't have to go work remote for the most part except, you know when I was sick I didn’t come (to the office)and there's been like a few scares where I didn't come into the office. But um I work in a really small office. It's like a house like right off behind the (courthouse). Um there's only four attorneys that work here. Um I guess one thing that was bad was they laid off, we had two assistants that they laid off. So I had less help, um and not less work. So in that sense, it did make things a little bit harder. Um, and you know that was, I guess, caused by sort of the, you know, income, like our firm makes a lot of the money that it makes off of criminal cases, and there's just been a lot less crime during COVID. In that, I mean, a big part of that is DUI, so people are not going to bars and drinking. So there's way fewer DUIs. Um, my understanding is domestic violence is up, but I don't, I don't think we've actually experienced that here. Um and, um, I guess, you know, people aren't getting into fights, because they're not going to places where they're going to get into fights. So uh sort of the amount of criminal law has gone down. So, I mean, that's kind of one of the reasons we laid off the assistants. But um, uh yeah, there's just as much in terms of civil rights violations in prison, I think, as ever, if not more, but um yeah, that's, that's kind of how it's affected me, in terms of uh dealing with a pandemic, like I did get to come to work. I think if I'd had to work from home, it would have been a lot harder to just like, day in day out have to work from home. Um I think for people working in law firms, you know, this is going to be a good thing. Because, like work life balance is hard for people that are like in bigger law firms. And, um you know, part of that is like the need to be in the office. And I think this is going to show people that you really don't need to be in the office all the time. Like if your kid’s sick, you can stay home and work from home. So um yeah, I think I think that's going to be a benefit not just to law, but to society in general that like you don't have to be in the office, you can do work from home if your life needs you to be at home.

[32:01]

LJ: Um so this is this conversation is for, you know, research purposes, and uh hopefully a part of the UCLA archives. So is there anything else that you want to say, um that you think should be recorded? Um about this time as your role as an advocate as your role as a person and as your role with um with clients who are incarcerated?

[32:24]

MP: Um I’m just trying to think. Um, yes. What I'm going to say what I'd like to say is that you know one of the distinguishing features of this time was the Black Lives Matter movement, and the Black Lives Matter movement arose because of videotape, that people caught all this violence happening on tape, right? So now there's all this movement, so like, defund the police, and or, which is not really defunding the police but like changing the way police works to make it less military and more humanistic. So the same thing is going on in prisons, because those people live in a police state as well, where like, they're surrounded by cops, they call them the cops. Like, if you talk to prisoners, like they will call the guards, the cops are around them 24/7. And that system, there is no camera. Yes, there are security cameras. But when one of those officers wants to do something, there's places where those cameras are not on, or they know how to turn them off. Because I can't tell you how many cases I have where ‘I got beaten in front of the camera, but for some reason, there was no videotape’. Um or ‘they took me to a place (then the) Sallyport doesn't have a camera’, like there's this one spot in the back of that dorm that the cameras are dead. So there's all of this violence going on in prison that's like, very much what the Black Lives Matter movement is about, but it's not getting seen, because it's happening in a closed off environment. So I would love to get the message out that, you know, Black Lives Matter should be not just about policing outside of jail, but also about the violence that's going on inside of jails, that is you know, coming from abuse of authority that nobody is seeing or hearing about because it's occurring to marginalized people. And there's there's nobody with a camera to catch it on film. So

[34:15]

LJ: No, that's absolutely an excellent point, um and I appreciate your time. Um if there's anything else, of course that you'd like to share uh but I think you gave a really um good kind of report about your experience with this and I really thank you for your time.

[34:29]

MP: You’re welcome. I hope the project works out well for you.