00:01 LJ

Um, well hello, my name is Lily Johnson with the UCLA law COVID-19 Behind Bars Data project. I apologize for my lack of video, um, for this conversation. I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we're about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. I want our conversation to flow freely. And I realize that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it now at the end of the interview, or later on after further reflection, we are happy for you to review the transcripts of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and the recording. So yeah, so please take it away, uh, Jonathan with just an introduction and what you were doing before the pandemic.

01:09 JBB

Sure thing, thank you, Lily. Good morning. My name is Jonathan Barry-Blocker. I'm a staff attorney at the Southern Poverty Law Center in the criminal justice reform unit. Prior to the pandemic, professionally, I started off, I started off as a prosecutor in Central Florida, specifically in Orange and Osceola counties. It's pretty much Disney World area. Did that for about four years, then transitioned to construction law, commercial litigation. And then from there, we relocated to Alabama for my wife to start dental school. I did medical malpractice defense for a little bit. Volunteered, worked on the Clinton campaign in North Carolina for about a month or so. And then I landed at Legal Services Alabama, where I was doing pretty much anti-poverty work. And happened to start a program on voting rights restoration, which attracted the attention of Southern Poverty Law Center. And that's where I've been for the past three years.

02:24 LJ

Okay, so if what are you doing, What would you maybe describe as like your current work? Today?

02:34 JBB

It's a mix. It's an interesting mix of litigation and community advocacy and policy. It's not always an even distribution in any given quarter of the year. This is the first time I've worked, in an attorney position that kind of has me doing these three categories of, assistance.

03:04 LJ

Um, yeah, no, that's, it's crazy. Just all of the different steps you've taken to be in the position you are today, you’ve really like seen all elements of the law. Um, but I'm curious how once the pandemic started now, a year ago, how that changed your workload, your, um, how you worked, um, the types of things you worked on.

03:31 JBB

Gotchu. Uh, that's a very broad question. So we'll take this in in bites. Let's start with my working conditions.

Pre pandemic, I've been working for Southern Poverty Law Center, as I said, about three years. We live in Birmingham, Alabama, but the Southern Poverty Law Center is located in Montgomery, the state capital. It's about an hour and a half south. So when I started, I commuted daily. Well, first, because my wife was pregnant at the time, I just stayed in Montgomery with some cousins, uh, and then I would come home on the weekends. But once we got near the birth of our first daughter, I started commuting. And then I, after my paternity leave, I commutted permanently. So I was usually up at about or out the door at about 630 so that I could make it to Montgomery to go to the gym. So then I can make it to work. Because when I came home, I just needed to be focused on whatever was happening at home. Usually I get home about 630-7 in the evening, um, if not a little later, sometimes. S this meant literally I was a zombie. I did not sleep really. My daughter was a fitful sleeper, so I would stay up till about midnight/1am so that my wife could have some continuous sleep uh before she had to go to school in the morning and then I would crash about 1am/2am and sleep until it's time to get up and roll out. That was my life. So when the pandemic hit, and I didn't have to drive anywhere, [sigh] man, you're talking about the best sleep of life as a grown man and a father. I was getting for the first time seven to 10 hours of sleep. I didn’t have to get my daughter to daycare for a little bit, because the daycares shut down here in Alabama. I didn't have to rush to Montgomery to be on time for anybody's meetings, or just to be seen in the office, none of that. So the pandemic was actually kind of nice. In addition, I had flexibility with my workday.

I would take my daughter for walks. Prior to the pandemic, I only got to engage with my eldest daughterat night, when she was fitfully awake, or at the evenings at bath time. Bath was my contribution, bath and getting her ready for bed, read a book, put her down. So it was a very, very compacted hour to two hours of interaction every day, until the weekend. We would take walks. And I would do this because my wife became pregnant during the pandemic. So I would take her out to give my wife some space. And we would take an hour/two hour walks around our community. And our community is very hilly. I did it to tire her out, but I came to enjoy it and so she would ask to go on the walk. Soon I started meeting neighbors because they thought it was cute that this father was walking his little talkative daughter who was only talking as long as no humans were around, through the neighborhood, and she'd pick flowers and other things. So sometimes people would want to give her flowers out of their garden or plants; they would engage with us and wave. And after a while, we got to a first name basis with a lot of people. That's been actually a, a blessing and a pleasure of the pandemic is engaging with my neighbors and having like unrestricted time with my daughter, in addition to sleeping like a normal human.

My health got better; I was eating better, exercising more regularly. The pandemic has some really great side effects as far as my working conditions. And all of this has proven to my job that I can work from afar, whereas before they were under the notion that I needed to be at the cubicle. I'm going to blame the Baby Boomer management (smile). But that's been the blessing of COVID-19 in my working conditions.

I think your questions also extended to workload. My workload, though, has become more stressful or weird. Prior to the pandemic, I had a couple of investigations going on here in Alabama. My practice area is criminal justice reform, at Southern Poverty Law Center. But its traditionally been, at least for the last three to five years, focused on prison litigation, jail litigation work. That's not my background nor is it my passion per se. I was hired towork on police accountability or police interactions. So I have been for the past year and a half trying to develop two cases centered around police practices. Two very interesting cases, one dealing with reproductive justice in the jail context. And the other dealing with an old law that I stumbled upon, and I had a feeling it arose during civil rights or during a reconstruction or post reconstruction. But um, I had to go to the Alabama archives to get confirmation. So anyways, I was trying to build those up into two big litigation cases.

Just prior to the pandemic we filed suit against the state of Alabama, challenging its application of its Sex Offender Registry laws against people who were juveniles at the time of their offense, but convicted in adult court. It's a whole lot of, lot of stuff, balancing of balls.

But when the pandemic hit, SPLC went on a hiring freeze. Then we were going through an internal revolution. And so we had a work moratorium on any new work, which means my two investigations were put on the back burner. Um, and I was kind of left freewheeling for a little bit.

Now the other half of my division or team works on a massive prison litigation or class action lawsuit called [Braggs v. Dunn]. They've been working on that for eight years, and it is fully consuming. It takes up almost all the resources on the team, human and capital wise. So they had just been given a trial date. And I'm not on that litigation team at this time. So everyone, including my supervisor was wrapped up in this trial that was supposed to happen, and then it didn't happen because last minute the defendants pulled some high jinks. And now that trial got pushed to May. So when they got a reprieve, it only lasted for like three days before the court told them to reorient on this trial date. So it's been a little weird, uh, also (as) my workload on the sex offender case, we had just filed a response to the defense’s motion to dismiss, and that got filed in January, just before the world went on lockdown. And, and even though we have the best judge for our case, as far as he gives the best consideration (to the) rights issues, he's also the same judge on the prison litigation case. So literally his case docket is at a standstill, especially civil rights cases, as he focuses on the (Braggs v. Dunn) class action litigation.

Another thing we've done during the pandemic is the prison litigation case Braggs was trying to get, they were trying to convince the, the Alabama Department corrections to start releasing folks on some type of compassionate release or, do things for folks who are most susceptible to COVID-19 infections or fatal infections so that they could get out of carceral settings. [muffled laugh] State of Alabama doesn't really recognize the humanity of incarcerated folks. So they declined to do so I'll put it that way. SPLC traditionally does not do direct services work. I have experience in it, but most of my colleagues did not. Daniel Teehan's passion project in working on the prison case was to create a self help resource on parole, the parole system in Alabama, and therefore allow folks who are incarcerated to advocate on their own behalf with the parole system here; which is a really jacked up system. And so um oh just going to give you a heads up I’m gonna get interrupted by random family members, but um…

12:19 LJ

Completely completely fine, but this is really great so will you please keep going?

12:23 JBB

Sure thing. So Daniel organized a group. First Daniel created a booklet. I'm trying to see if I have a copy of it here on the desk. But he literally wrote a booklet compiling all of Alabama's policies and procedures on parole, published it through SPLC, it published just before the pandemic commenced and SPLC shut down. Also SPLC shut down its offices starting March of 20, early March of 2020. So on pain of termination, or serious discipline, you cannot return to the office. So all these books Daniel published that we meant to send out on a mass mailing are sitting in the office in Montgomery.

13:03 LJ

are they still sitting there?

13:05 JBB

Yeah, because we, [pause for chuckle] budgets got rearranged in the pandemic, it's, a lot has happened. So in fact, someone called asking if they were supposed to throw away the booklets because we, I suppose SPLC has a lot of publications from over the years. They've [excess booklets] been sitting in boxes and random cabinets, and someone in administration was asking around, can I throw all these things out? And I happen to get the emails, [and I was] like do not throw out the parole books! Those are brand new! The pandemic has just stolen our opportunities to send them out, uh which in the end kind of worked out because the Alabama parole board almost completely changed its evaluation process, passed new laws and policies that kind of invalidate everything Daniel did for two years to get that book published. But the information is still still good. So Daniel was like, you know, well, if we can't get the books to the people and the Alabama Department of Corrections isn't going to let people out, let's represent them on parole. He had to do some convincing of leadership. But a group of us were like, yeah, let's do it. He got us together, trained us on how the process goes in Alabama and we've literally just started representing people in parole. We would, we would look on the website for the Alabama Department of Pardons and Parole; see who was on the upcoming hearing dates. Alabama will post up to a month and a half in advance, not a lot of time. Then we would set up legal calls This is literally a cold call these people don't know we're calling because there's, you can't trust the mail in Alabama. It can show up in a day. Pre pandemic or pre Trump mail was like that [snaps fingers]. You can mail it anywhere in Alabama and show up the next you know, maybe two days later. Maybe in the prisons after (it’s processed) four days later. But then the pandemic mail could either be two days or could be a week and a half to two weeks. I’ve had it go both ways. Or the prison could just eat it. And the clients would never receive the communications. So we'd set up these phone calls, they need to figure out since we can't be there in person, how do we get them to sign a retainer agreement to allow us to represent them. So we tried recording things on our phone with the app. Eehhh that didn't really work. So then you try to memorialize it, you'd read the retainer agreement. I mean, it was a whole lot going on. Then we tried to set up a system where one person would be the interviewer/drafter then other people would review.

Pre-pandemic, you could go to a meeting or uh a hearing in person [in Alabama]. The incarcerated person, though, is not entitled to show up at their own hearing. A mess, right? No due process concerns at all. But you could show up and advocate on their behalf. By the extension, you could also see who was advocating for your client say in prison and not be granted parole. When the pandemic started the governor suspended the Open Meetings Act and all these other rules and regulations, and the state agencies had a field day with it, especially the Board of Pardons & Paroles. So they said oh, it's too dangerous for you to show up here in person. It's like great well this is the 20, what 21st century, so let's stream it on zoom as we're all doing our [e.g. SPLC, state agencies, etc] meetings. But then Alabama, cried poor mouth. Or that they didn't have cooperation with the Alabama Department of Corrections. So there's no streaming capability, so you can't stream to meet your clients in prison. And you can't stream their presence at the hearing. Nor is the hearing streamed generally to the public to conform with the [Alabama] Open Meetings Act. So you don't even you have to submit written testimony or application on behalf of your client. But [now] you have to do [written testimony and application] within five business days of the hearing. So we're already running, working on this crunch time trying to coordinate with people incarcerated where we're barely getting phone calls on time. They only last an hour. And getting, coordinating, and passing of documents between us is difficult. It's been an adventure.

We're not the only ones doing it. The Southern Center for Human Rights is doing it. Um who else is doing it [unintelligible], Alabama Appleseed Center for Law and Justice is doing it also.

And just for posterity, I want to read into the record the names of the people I've collaborated with in this. This would be the non-attorneys, starting with our founder of this project Daniel Teehan, Claudia Huerta, Viviana Rodriguez, Christie Doniver, Tanya White-Evans, and Katie Glenn. Uh as far as attorneys, Maya Rajaratnam, Ellen Degnan, Ebony Howard, Brock Boone, Lynette Minor, Jacqueline Aranda-Osorno, and myself. We’re all from SPLC. The project is interdepartmental. It goes across professional categories. We are comprised of paralegals, advocacy outreach folks, legal assistants, and policy personnel. We're in the criminal justice reform group; we’re in the children's rights group; we’re in the LGBTQ group, as far as our practice areas. So it's a collaborative effort.

It's actually been very gratifying.

We also decided to take a racial justice lens to this work. So we intentionally focused on folks who were over the age of 50, who had - if we could discern - health complications that put them at risk for really adverse COVID infections. We also focused on Black and Brown folks; women, especially if we could discern they were pregnant or mothers. Then folks who are gender non-conforming because Alabama has a really rough history of treating their health concerns. So what we've had to do, right is we look on the [upcoming parole hearings] list to identify people. Then you have to go into the Alabama prisons website, look up these people to identify their demographic information: their age, their gender, how they self-identify as far as race or culture.

Like I had someone who [Alabama Department of Corrections] says is “Black” and was actually Indigenous. Yes, she may have some African ancestry, but she identifies as an Indigenous [person]. Another person was listed as [unintelligible] and I didn't get to represent him, but I believe he was of Asian descent. Just really weird stuff.

So you have to go and confirm, then you look at the photo, right? Because you don't know what their health could be. The photo sometimes would indicate they are obese., Or it didn't indicate that but part of the demographic information the prison posts is the person's weight. So they might look slender in their headshot, but then you look at their weight and they are 225 pounds and they're only five, eight. So it's been really interesting.

I reached out to groups like Aid to Inmate Mothers or the Alabama Birthing Project. The Aid to Inmate Mothers provides assistance to incarcerated women, usually in the prison system, here to try to get them external housing,. Or to facilitate them [incarcerated women] maintaining their roles as mothers while they serve their sentences. The Alabama Birthing Project is actually a nonprofit group of doulas here in Alabama, who volunteered their time to provide doula services to incarcerated women out of Alabama's primary women's facility - Tutwiler prison. They do amazing work and they've been trying to do amazing work during this pandemic. So I reached out to them for purposes of cross-referencing which women they are working with are pregnant, or you know, you're really trying to help them get out. And I see if they’re women match on the list of the people we might be willing to assist because they meet our categories.

That's the work we've been doing with that. That has been constant since May. We've assisted because this is kind of a I won't call it extracurricular, but a bonus project so to speak. It’s not our normal caseload. So we've assisted in our group [SPLC], about 35 people. We've successfully gotten maybe eight to nine people paroled. The most successful advocate is my outreach paralegal Viviana Rodriguez. Every single person she's assisted, has been granted parole. The lawyers cannot claim the same statistic. It's been pretty impressive. And we're trying to dissect what it is about her cases and how she advocates that her people always seem to be granted parole. So that's been a really engrossing part of my pandemic work. Because (I’ll uh), this may be going deeper than what you expected. But I'm just gonna let it all out for you,

21:53 LJ

No please, continue.

21:55 JBB

Alabama (created) these policies, and I can if post interview you want, I'll send you a copy. But anyways, they change their rules, right, created these new policies that went into effect in January last year. Part of their policies, (is) they now use a general rubric of categories, and they score you on this rubric. And if you score less than eight points, you're supposed to be granted parole. If you score more, then you continue to sit in the prisons. And part of one of the scoring components is an algorithm. You either are evaluated under the Ohio Risk Assessment, uh I think that's what it is… ORAS: Ohio Risk Assessment Something, or the um, there is one for folks who are on the sex offender registry. They’re supposed to be doing this, right. But we kept finding the people we thought would gain release based on our packets we put together were being denied. And I was like ugh, what?

I had time because most of my compatriots were on the prison case or on other stuff. So I said, well, let me evaluate my client based on this rubric. And I did with the information I had available. And this is not adding up. Come to find out they're [Alabama] not conforming to their own rubric. And the ACLU of Alabama has an investigative reporter do a piece and it was revealed that Alabama was only conforming to its own rubric system, that they'd implemented that January 2020, maybe 30% of the time. And if you are convicted of a violent offense that’d decrease the likelihood that they will conform to their own guidelines to grant you parole. So what was happening was the people being granted parole were usually White men with low level drug offenses. A lot of Black folks had serious offenses. They weren't let out. Or they had a history that the prison or the parole board would say, “yeah, we can't trust you out.” So it's been a struggle. And so then the reporting was brought up, you know, y'all are just letting out White men, or you, out of the 100 people you saw you only let out, ten.

There's also some political backstory. Alabama - because the prison suit we filed has been trying to do a lot of criminal justice reform, specifically on the back end with letting folks out of the overcrowded crumbling prisons. And unfortunately, about two and a half years ago, one of the -- well the parole board was at the time run by folks who were relatively… I wouldn’t call them progressive, but they saw that things need to change, right? So they were granting more and more paroles, which is great! You're relieving the pressure on the understaffed, crumbling, ancient, decrepit, unconstitutionally conditioned prisons. However, one of the people they let out, granted parole, he ended up committing a very violent crime. I think he killed a grandmother and maybe her grandson. It was, it was bad. So the very reactionary conservative legislature just went on a media blitz, blaming the agency for recklessly granting parole. The governor felt the pressure, our first woman governor Kay Ivey. It's a weird politics. The Alabama legislature ceded authority to control the parole board to the governor. The governor then appoints as new head, this very, very, very, very reactionary guy named Charlie Graddick. He's a former Circuit Judge out of Mobile andformer Attorney General of Alabama; very just [grimace] anti progress. So Director Graddick took over just before the pandemic, when these new rules are gonna start applying. And so under his leadership, the agency, just all the progress they've been making pre- pandemic on parole, as well as voting rights restoration - that's another thing - he kind of rolled back or at least it kind of rolled back under his leadership. And so we also found out that he was fighting with his own parole board! Thank God! Bless the ACLU journalists who uncovered all this. But in the end, that's what we think was happening, right? There was some type of unspoken policy that people with violent offenses weren't going to be granted parole.

Now, footnote on that. ”Violent offenses” in Alabama is not quite what you think. It's a legislated list, right? And it includes things that are traditionally considered violent crime: sex offenses, physical sex offenses, as well as you know, robbery, and murder, heavy assault, aggravated assault. However, it also includes things like burglary, specifically burglary that doesn't involve weapons. Or in Alabama, I think it's third degree burglary, which is literally just going to a tool shed and stealing something in the dead of night. So you have people who are listed as “violent,” but the context of their offences, the facts that went with their conviction, there's no violence entailed. So that's another hill you'd have to fight when you're trying to get someone parole.

So we also decided, as part of our project, we would represent people not only who are most susceptible to COVID, but those who are least likely to get free representation from other advocacy groups or have a lawyer take their case. So a lot of times these are people with violent convictions, and what we've uncovered are very interesting fact patterns.

Like one woman, the first woman I represented, Mrs. Chandra, she's known as Chandra Alexander, but she should be referred to as Chandra Johnson. She had been convicted of murdering a friend when she was a drug addict. She and a friend were addicts. When you delve into the facts of the case, you learn that she and the friend are addicts, yes. But then they'd gone uh to score drugs and interacted with someone who knew a friend of theirs. And he said, great, let's go to your house or whatever. They drive to the house of her friend, the one who's deceased. And [audio cuts out] uh often in the midst of the robbery. Brutally murders him in front of Mrs. Johnson. And then compels Mrs. Johnson, you know, because she doesn't want to die, to help him load up the car and move the body. Like traumatic experience to go through! She hides out for several days. This means [he, the killer is] not going to find and kill her.

Finally, her husband convinces her you know, she should come forward. She goes to the officers, because they had found a body burned but didn't know what the contexts were. She goes to the officer and says, Hey, this is what happened to that body. It's my friend. I can identify it for you. I can tell you what happened. [Mrs. Johnson] completely cooperates with law enforcement. The DA charges her with capital murder alongside the actual killer! In an effort not to get on death row, she takes a plea agreement to a reduced charge, a reduced murder or manslaughter charge. [She] testifies against him at trial. All of this is on his appellate record. You can read in the opinion, but they gave her life in prison and since then, they've never granted her parole.

When she went to prison, she had three children under like the age of five. All of them are grown now. At least two of them have kids. Her husband, thankfully, and a cousin would bring the kids monthly if not weekly to visit her in prison. So she has relationships with all of her children. But the parole board denied her.

This woman has beat her addiction. She has gotten certifications. Did classes. Did everything one would ask of anyone incarcerated. And they denied her.

Broke my heart.

And as we did more and more, we discovered there are more and more stories of people…Miss Orso. Scarlet Orso, the Indigenous woman who was convicted of a homicide she actually did not commit.

Other folks who just … have very compelling stories and cases for why they should be granted parole … and a lot of these people are now 50 years or older. Right, they've been in prison for decades. And Alabama won’t let them out. So as part of our advocacy, SPLC’s communications department has been doing investigative pieces on some of our clients who were denied parole. The series is called Freedom Denied. And it examines, it just gives a humanizing piece on the folks that we represent, who are not granted parole, although their stories are compelling.

And so I say all that to say -- circle back to what I originally was talking about, the rubric. I was scoring, and I was seeing that these people should be free, under the the Board of Pardon and Parole’s own guidelines. And so I write them letters telling them [denied clients], you know, this is what I've assessed, I don't think it's right. But the appellate, the appeal process is almost non-existent for parole. There's no administrative appeal within the agency. And if you appeal to a court, you have to prove fraud, or capriciousness, or deceit by the agency. And you can’t, the case law indicates you can't go on a fishing expedition either. So you literally have to have the documents and the evidence in hand to be able to show the agency’s actions fit within one of these three narrow disreputable categories of decision making. There aren't a lot of successful cases; and you can't really do it as a class action.

We only represent these folks on their parole, initial parole hearing. So I've been trying to engage other agencies like the ACLU to take on an appeal, and the ACLU has expressed interest. But now it's a matter of figuring out what could be the strongest case to push back on.

So what I've been trying to do in the meantime, to build up potential cases for these folks, is to do records requests on behalf of my clients. Traditionally, the parole board does not consider parole cases public records, right? [Remember] You can't go to your own hearing. You can't be streamed, it can't be streamed for whatever reason - pandemic. And now, you're not entitled to the case files on your own parole [case]. However, they've expanded the rules a little bit; there's been a change in administration. The new General Counsel takes a reasonable interpretation of their restrictions. So I've actually got some documents on behalf of my clients, uh to better understand what the decision making was. Sometimes it's not clear to me based on the records. Other times, it seems contrary to what the rubric should have indicated. But since I can't get a copy of the [completed] rubric, I don't know what the [client’s] actual rubric says. Um It's just been eye opening. And so we're really hoping, uh because it's been shown in Alabama, that parole is what relieves pressure on the prison overcrowding in the state, most of all. So we are really hoping that if we can push the right kinds of appeals on bad parole decisions, we can maybe get folks released. More folks released. But nothing has happened.

Everyone’s stretched kind of thin in the Civil Rights world during this pandemic, as far as trying to put out a lot of fires. So that's what we've been doing on the parole project. Um another big project, oh, and I wanted to say about the algorithm. They haven't even validated the algorithm that they allegedly rely on in their rubric. I've asked for the records for that and we've got strung along, but essentially, they're like, we haven't validated this. So you’re not even validating the algorithm that is allegedly helping you determine who should remain incarcerated. Nor are you revealing what the factors are in the algorithm program you're using! It's a mess. Um so that's what we've been dealing with on the parole project.

Another thing we did in the beginning of the pandemic, was …everyone was - people were focused on the adults in the prisons, because they’re the subject of our class action suit. But people ignore the juveniles. So a group of us - and when I say “us” - SPLC attorneys in two different practice groups, a guy named Gar Blum, who's a kind of he's, I would like to say, juvenile justice expert for Alabama, though he never claimed that title. He's, he's who you would go to because he litigates a lot on behalf of incarcerated youth who are deemed delinquent.

Cut to background context. There is no unified public defender system here in Alabama. Right?!? I'm from Florida where there is one and the public defender system covers both juvenile court and adult court. So in my head [I’m] thinking everyone has access to criminal counsel coming into a case at any level, whether it be juvenile or adult. Not so in Alabama. There are six I think public defender offices in this state.Not even in every major city. Yhat’s its own disgusting political history. But there's none for youth in the delinquency system. There are I think a legal aid program here that tries to cover some folks; but that's only a smidgen of the state. So Gar [Gar Blum] is one of the private attorneys who really makes a point of taking on delinquency cases. Um and it's not everyone who does that work, or does it zealously.

So we collaborate with Gar. We also collaborated with the Alabama disabilities. Oh, let me not mistake their name uh what’s it called, Alabama Disabilities Advocacy Program or ADAP. We did this uh emergency petition (a writ) to the Alabama Supreme Court asking them to use or invoke their powers under sections 140 and 150 of the Alabama Constitution of 1901, to direct the lower courts over juvenile cases, to create a protocol to evaluate cases so kids could be released to their families during the pandemic. We put together this writ, I mean, we've got this thing together in two weeks. And for the record, I want to read into the record their names from SPLC. That would be attorneys Ebony Howard, Michael Tafelski, Claire Sherburne, Brock Boone, and myself. From ADAP that would be [attorneys] Rhonda Brownstein and Jenny Ryan. And then Gar Blume who's in Blume & Blume PC. and Blume spelled B-L-U-M-E. Um we got this thing together. Stats from the Sentencing Project. And other sources just I mean, we really did the thing, or at least we felt we did, filed it.

And the next day the Alabama Supreme Court issues an order asking us to show cause to show why they had jurisdiction, which we had stated in the petition. So then we did a reply that kind of expanded on their jurisdiction, citing how they invoke those same powers to direct courts to comply with the US Supreme Court decision about marriage for those in non-heterosexual relationships. Um and other stuff…

[Wife passes in background] That's my wife, y'all. I see too.

Um, and then 20 days later, the Alabama Supreme Court issues an order just dismissing the petition. No reason why; no analysis. They just dismissed it.

At the time, we estimated there are about 200 to 300 youth in detention facilities in Alabama. A lot of it private [facilities], some of them being Sequel [Youth and Family Services] facilities. And whether or not you follow, Sequel is a national private company that does juvenile incarceration, and they've had some outbreaks of COVID at facilities in Arizona, and I think was it Michigan? As well as some sexual abuse allegations.

I mean, it's a mess, but that's what the (judiciary) did. They, they allowed Sequel as well as the state's facilities to remain open and incarcerating youth. These youth are not really getting any services we found out from parents. They're not really getting any educational instruction, uh or any of the things … they are supposed to rehabilitate, get them out, right.

The other complication is you have people who were detained pretrial, what are you doing with them? Why don't you let them go home to their family? They weren't considering that. Um so we were frustrated and it seemed clear we thought maybe Supreme Court would do something on its own. It didn't, um and so we had to move on to other issues.

But that was uh something we tried to do in the pandemic, that was batted down by the state of Alabama.

Uh (so did I have any other work?) What was other work I've been doing? Uh participated in, hmmm, um

(So a couple of) My colleagues in the economic justice practice group decided, also, at the beginning of the pandemic they wanted tohelp courts, the lower courts have an idea if they should engage with the public for cases or hearings or litigation. We figured the state of Alabama was not going to put together a uniform protocol system. (We guessed not) So we collaborated with the public defenders, some of the public defenders throughout the state as well as federal defenders to try to assess what their needs were in their respective courthouses and jurisdictions., Then with them brainstorm policy, or protocols that the courts can implement and we pass out to the courts. You know, say hey, the works been done. Here's some things we’ve crowdsourced, would you consider doing that? Wasn't really well-received. The courts in Alabama are their own fiefdoms. So each county courthouse is run by those judges. The Supreme Court of Alabama doesn't really exert any - from what I can discern, at least - any strict controls.Some judges seemed receptive, but if they weren't the chief judge in their district, our protocols might not be adopted.

Others were outright hostile. We saw that in Tuscaloosa county. The judges were not inclined to engage with our protocols. We also saw these judges, um, this one didn't really feel the need for masks and other stuff. Then one day, they put up face shields or shields for the prosecutors’ table and the judge. But not for the defendants’ table or in the gallery. People we learned were packed in there [courtrooms]. At least one judge and some personnel in that courthouse subsequently caught COVID.

We learned that the prosecutor wasn't taking things seriously in Tuscaloosa. His office has had several outbreaks of COVID.

And the Tuscaloosa county jail has had outbreaks of COVID, although they don't really talk about it. We’ve had to find that out from folks who are incarcerated and their families.

So we put together this thing and the people on that who really led that effort - I'm just a participant - People who led that effort are from SPLC: Micah West, Alexandra Jordan, Ellen Degnan, Katie Glen, and I participated. From the Public Defenders, we have public defenders from Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile - Mobile just got a public defender office. That’s a sort of political drama as to why they're just getting in and they’re, the third largest city in Alabama. The Federal Defenders who are participating are from Birmingham and Montgomery. ADAP and Attorney Jenny Ryan. , Professors Jenny Carroll and Amy Kimball from the University of Alabama law school.

What started out as a weekly (thing) to talk about protocols has since then morphed into, like a weekly group to just kind of track what's going on in jails. For example, they were talking about Tuscaloosa County, which is the home of the University of Alabama, Crimson Tide football team. We learned of the conditions at the jail. They [SPLC] filed a public record suit simply to learn well, what are your policies regarding COVID. Jails here in the state are run by Sheriffs or city police chiefs. This one was run by the sheriff, the sheriff was like I'm not giving up the data or information to you. (Soon) things play out and come to find out -- they literally do not have any COVID protocols! Nothing. This suit, I think they learned that information a couple months ago. So it's been basically a year, and you've not developed any kind of protocols to address COVID for your incarcerated population, as well as your staff. Ugh. And this is why folks are getting [audio cuts out]. So um, yeah, there's been that.

So now we've been trying to monitor well what have we learned in other jails throughout the state and what are things we can do to intervene or assist or just provide relief. But we did, none of us really have the wherewithal or the the resources because we're already stretched thin on other projects to really fully engage on this. So everyone's trying to find soft solutions or policy solutions to this issue. So that's work that's been stressing us out that we've been doing.

Another thing we've been working on is I help out a little bit on the prison litigation when they thought they were gonna have an emergency hearing, did some discovery work. We have two cases in [audio cuts out] Florida dealing with solitary confinement, Harvard v. Inch as well as GH v. Marsteller. Harvard deals with adult isolated confinement in the prisons and GH deals with juvenile isolated confinement. One of those - I don't work on those litigation teams - but one of them they won a [audio cuts out] against witnesses for sharing information, [about the] treatment and conditions in a prison. Um so they just got that opinion or that order, I want to say, maybe three months ago. They've been doing great work in the pandemic. Another one is Fraihat v. ICE that's suing the immigration system on (mental health) and health accommodations. And in the beginning of the pandemic they filed for a TRO, I forgot what came of that. I think they had success or mixed success. I know they've been stressed. They've been working nonstop.

What I can say generally for the purposes of this project. A lot of our litigators and advocacy folks have been working nonstop in the pandemic, whether it be on their [unintelligible] caseload, or they were seeking TROs or finding ways to expand their cases’ advocacy to cover the pandemic or in addressing new stuff. People are stretched thin, they’re wore out.

There's one guy, I convinced him to come and join us [SPLC], Brock. And he's been working non-stop. He joined us just before the pandemic in January of last year. And he's been working non-stop, non-stop. He has not had a break at all. It's been rough. It's been rough.

Another colleague, Jackie Aronda-Osorno, she became pregnant. She recently gave birth like my wife did a couple of weeks ago. But she had to do all this work on the prison case, and the parole project, while pregnant. It’s her first pregnancy -- in a pandemic or lockdown. She bought a home during the pandemic. I mean, it's a lot people are carrying. It’s a heavy load, an emotional load. And so a lot of us are wore out.

Like you, you're trying to scrape enough energy to maintain for your partners, or your spouses, for your children, for your own loved ones who may be susceptible to adverse COVID consequences.

My family's been blessed, we've not suffered any losses from the pandemic. But a woman I consider my second mother, she's lost extensive family, and neighbors from her childhood home in Albany, Georgia. I mean, just extensive, and she was telling me literally, it was like COVID was just hopping across the street to different people's houses, and taking them out one by one by one. For the record, Albany has been (an epicenter), at least early in the pandemic for really nasty COVID outbreaks. A lot of people died, a lot of Black folks. Um and so how do I comfort that woman? Right? How do I share with her that I haven't had any loss of my family, um but, but without it, diminishing her pain or, or seeming callous? It's been rough, I haven't known how to communicate with her or other people who've suffered losses. I try to be empathetic, but how do you do that?

And my own emotional barrel is pretty low given the work. I get rejuvenated when I go on walks with my daughter, but then it's right back to the grind. Working hours are irregular because you're at home, so you deal with childcare issues. Like I said, the daycares are closed, so I had to watch my daughter, but that's during the day trading with my wife, she's a dentist. And for a while she was not working or couldn't go into the office. Because dentistry you know it’s just a lot of, particles in the air that they you know, they're like, whoo, you could just catch COVID going to work there. Uh but then her company found a way to put in protocols and practices, so she had to go back to work, and she commutes to Tuscaloosa 45 minutes away., but that’s where they're having their outbreaks in the jail. In the courthouse. So navigating childcare during the daytime, so to speak, And then in the evenings, finding time to work relatively uninterrupted. It's been rough. So while I have enjoyed getting sleep, my hours have become very erratic on some things. Sometimes I won't report into work till like 10am because I'm up until two or three [a.m.], trying to get work done while my daughter's asleep and while my wife was pregnant and resting. And now that she's given birth and we got two kids, oh, those eight hour days of sleep, are gone! Now we’re down to like I don't know, is it like two hour increments if that. This baby is ravenous! So we're always being awakened by cries for more food. Um and then trying to balance giving attention to our toddler so that she doesn't feel left out. It's a lot.

And that's just my story, right? You could talk to any of these attorneys and they have their own stories. SPLC recently has had a lot of attorneys become young parents. Or when I say “young,” I mean, they're young compared to some of the established employees at the organization. And so we're all having, been having kids within the last three to five years. So it's rough. Well, SPLC never had affinity groups before last year, we now have a parenting affinity group. And those parents are struggling to take care of not only their children, but sometimes aging relatives, or children with special needs. So now our affinity group has expanded from parenting to parents and caretakers, just so that we can be more inclusive and trying to lobby or petition to HR to create accommodations for folks, folks that have driven across country to be with other relatives, that they can have childcare assistance. Other folks have just had to say I can't work between these and these daylight hours. [Instead] I can work between these evening and nighttime hours. It's been rough. So those are some of the projects, trying to think, because your question is about working conditions, “projects you've been working on”...

Also things we, SPLC did was a grant project where we are giving micro grants to organizations in the pandemic in our footprint states. And so because my child is in daycare, and it's been closed, and a friend of mine runs a philanthropy group for women and she was telling me that like something, was it 60% of Alabama's childcare and daycare facilities were going to be permanently closed because of the pandemic. I think they were already operating on shoestring profit margins, uh if a profit margin at all. But the pandemic was taking out their income, or their revenue. And so they couldn't recover. You know, the loans, you know who's getting the PPP loan and whatnot. So she created an emergency fund to raise money to create stop gaps for these institutions and mind you her philanthropic group is mostly concerned with the metro Birmingham areas, and they've got five counties surrounding Birmingham, which is the state's largest city. But this because it was needed statewide, she's generating funds to even distribute to other agencies in groups and other counties. So I got SPLC to donate some money to that.

I asked them [SPLC] to donate money to the Alabama Birthing Project, that nonprofit of doulas who work with incarcerated mothers, as well as Adelante Workers Rights Center, which is a workers rights or labor advocacy org that specifically helps out the immigrant population communities here, especially Spanish speaking ones. So they were putting together funds also to provide financial assistance to workers who can no longer (go) to their job during pandemic. And a lot of these um being undocumented workers and communities and families. So I was trying to, I, part of my personal advocacy has been trying to find groups that could benefit from some of SPLC’s largess and directing funds and resources and attention their way. Um so yeah, I hope that kinda answers some of your questions.

Oh, forgot another thing that we're working on. I think we're all aware that it was a very monumental, pivotal election uh [laughs] in November 2020, that was coming to a head during the pandemic and other world issues. Let’s talk about police brutality, that's a separate thing as [I am] a Black male attorney here. Um but the election, right. And so when we saw the antics being done, especially by our own Congressman, Mo Brooks, we thought there might be a likelihood of violence at some of the polling locations on the day after voting. So I was tasked with putting together a (going to call it) a legal observer program, kind of akin to what National Lawyers Guild has been doing for decades. And so, both national and the local chapter [of NLG] trained us and we organized just in case things went south, and we were needed. In the end, we weren't needed in Alabama, I guess, because the state folks are deeply red. They didn’t feel threatened by new voting results in polling locations. Um so we didn't have to do that. But I did participate with our voting rights department, uh in doing poll watching the day of the election. And we collaborated for the first time with the Alabama - ADAP - Alabama Disabilities Advocacy Program, to do poll watching specifically to look at whether or not polling sites accommodate those with needs. That was very interesting. I was like, God, all these polling sites are non-compliant with the ADA! Um so did a lot of watching around that, information gathering. I know my wife expressed concerns about me being out in public on election day, in a pandemic, but you know, you mask up, stay in your car as long as you can, you get out and take photos and video footage and transmit it, upload it, whole lot of stuff. But I did that from, like, 9am to like, 8pm that night, it was a long day. And then to be told, hey, like that night, we need you to put together a legal observer program (in less than) a couple of days. Uuuhhh don't trust my timeline. Everything's blending together. But uh yeah, that was what I did on behalf of voting. I mentioned way back when, in the beginning of this interview, that I did voting rights restoration, or started a program when I was at Legal Services Alabama, and I helped out off and on with it here at SPLC since transitioning here.

But what I’d advocate to people was this work should be done aggressively since this law was created to allow for restoration (in Alabama). Um, so that when the general election happens, you have more people voting. And the people, there were some aggressive efforts taken [in Alabama], but not on the level of Stacey Abrams and the kind of voting voter mobilization she did in Georgia. I think she should serve as a template for folks in Alabama, specifically on the restoration scene, or as far as Florida was trying to do with Amendment Four and Desmond Meade in his group. That's kind of halted because you can't go to people and talk with them about their conviction histories and assess their needs. And I think that work is really crucial, because a lot of it dealt with getting folks to trust you to show up at community outreach events or invite you into their home. Since no one should be going into anyone’s home during this pandemic that's out. Andn community events are usually in enclosed spaces. You can't ask people to risk their lives so that you can help them get their right to vote back. I mean, that's a decision they should make, but not you. So that kind of outreach has diminished. I did a CLE on it for, for Legal Services and the state of Alabama asked to publish it online (for folks to take), we have a very [unintelligible] CLE requirement, we must do it in person, most of our CLEs and you have to do like 24 hours of CLE a year or is it 16? I don't know, in Florida, you had to just do it every three to five years that was the cycle. But here in Alabama it’s annual, but they limited you to only half your credits can be done online. And the pandemic they readjusted. Now all your credits can be done online. So mine was put up there on voting rights and to, a lot of people watched it or whatever. But I was getting emails from attorneys who said well, how can I do this work in the pandemic (and I was) like, I don't know what to tell you. Because traditionally, the way I did it was to go out and hold community forums and engage people in public spaces. Um so that's been concerning, that folks aren't learning about reclaiming their rights after they're a Returned Citizen.

So yeah, and then the last thing I was gonna say is I started volunteering or trying to with the National Lawyer’s Guild chapter up here to observe protests during the pandemic, because as I mentioned. Yeah, let's just talk about, well, let me let's just talk about what it's like to watch police brutality cases flare up, while being trapped at home, while also being a civil rights advocate and attorney, um, but at an organization that doesn't traditionally do policing work. It's been very frustrating. Um I feel immeasurably privileged to be able to advocate against brutality or to intervene in some capacity with my degree and my training and my access to resources. But I feel very constrained that my organization doesn't traditionally do that work. As well as being cognizant that my wife is pregnant. And we don't know how or at the time she was pregnant, we didn't know how COVID was going to impact her health. So now I can put myself at risk to catching COVID and that means she would catch it.

Oh, fun fact that I found out I was, she was pregnant when I was in isolation because I tested positive for COVID. I was asymptomatic. But I was I quarantined within our two bedroom apartment. I was relegated to one bedroom for two weeks and she would like pass food through the door. And on Father's Day because I was quarantined during Father’s Day, she sent me a card and she's like, “you're a great father to our kids.” And I said “what?! We only have one.” And she peeks through the door and laughs and I’m like oh my God! But that changed everything right? Because then I can't put myself in a position to put her and my, my eldest daughter at risk during her pregnancy. So I legally observed one time, but after that I couldn't, ‘cause she was nervous. I was nervous. So I was, I would beat myself up because I was like, I'm not doing anything. I'm an attorney, a Black attorney in this space. God, there's only like “five Black attorneys” sometimes it feels like even in the nation, much of us doing civil rights work and um, I can't assist. So I would speak with folks or protesters, the NLG had observed after I couldn't, I went to one right? And after that, that's when I became COVID positive. So I didn't do any more legal observing directly, but I would assist by talking with witnesses from those events and transcribing their accounts and trying to collect evidence and passing it on to NLG for their attorneys to do whatever they want to do with it.

But that's been stressful, and it's been wearying. Uh it's been disheartening. Um having to sometimes be the translator to non-attorneys, family members, committee members who don't understand why this keeps happening and why the law failsvictims and their families.

Uh I mentioned I'm a pro-- I was a former prosecutor for four years in Central Florida and I did some pretty serious work; sex crimes, child abuse, criminal trends, like burglaries and robberies. So I still have a lot of contacts and friends who are detectives or active police members, law enforcement, trying to have conversations with them. Why, as an American and a human, we should be disturbed by what's happening, but then adding that element of I am a Black man. I am your Black friend, colleague, associate whatever you want to call me. I'm Black. And this is a, this this practice this trend is an existential threat to my existence and my family's existence.

I had one guy, we had, he was a cop of color, very friendly dude from my days as a prosecutor. Um we had some very spirited discussions, I’ll, I’ll call them “spirited” and I’ll call them “discussions.” We didn't call each other (out of our names), but emotions flew. And I think at one point, someone I forgot who had just been killed. But I was like I don't have the energy to talk, to deal with you right now to continue these discussions. And he had said, well, on your Facebook, can you stop berating us cops? And I said I'm not berating you. He said well can you post positive things? I said it's not my job to post positive things about your profession. That's your job if you want to do it. Also, my profile is not your platform. Uh, if I want to highlight that Black Lives Matter and that there are inappropriate police responses I'm going to. Well, he unfriended me on Facebook. I haven't heard from him since. I even had extended the olive branch, I said, hey, dude, I'm sorry for ghosting you for a couple of weeks. I said, I just I was drained. I can't take any more like watching another killing. I just, I couldn't engage with you. And I apologize for being short with you.

He never responded.

I haven't spoken with him since.

A couple other officers still engage with me. I have a multi ethnic cop friend, part of his ancestry is Black. He has a very unique view on things, I think. We still talk, but it's … I I struggle to speak with him and other officers from a position of empathy because to do that sometimes requires me to just listen to their grievances, and how they feel and their perspective, which is valid. They are under immense stress and this profession’s systems are not structured to support them in the kind of work they do nor protect their mental health and well-being. Um but listening to that, and having to stop myself from rebutting some of what they say um because in my -- to me, what your struggle, your very valid struggles do not justify you, committing extrajudicial killings and brutality of non-White folks, especially Black and Brown folks. It doesn't justify it. But I want you to feel heard in this moment, because I know you have frustrations as an officer in a pandemic, with people who don't listen and you regularly deal with the dregs of human behavior. I get it. I do. I was a prosecutor, I saw. I used to go on ride alongs I, I've got a snapshot. I haven't lived it, but I can get a snapshot of an idea of how you deal with pressures the rest of us don't.

I also deal with pressures. And so sometimes I was trying to communicate to them the pressures you deal with, you're paid for. Real talk. You took -- you you applied to a profession, you're hired, you are compensated, maybe horribly, but you are compensated for your work. But I'm not compensated as a Black man. I don't get paid to exist as a Black man in America. I don't get paid to worry about police brutality. I don't get paid to arm myself and train myself to have a firearm on the off chance I need to protect myself. But then having to account for my wife thinks here that me possessing a firearm will actually lead to me being shot. I don't. I don't. I don't have that. I don't get compensated for confronting what I think are contrived police encounters.I said now I also don't get to take off my skin tone or my coloring or my social designation. Um at the end of the day, it's not a uniform. It's a lived experience. It is, it is me. And for better or worse, this is how I am. I am compelled to be dressed by the Lord. S I mean, I want them to understand that.

Uh, some of them don't, or they pay lip service and say they do. And I think others like my friends of color who are officers, I think that is an ongoing struggle they have, where do they fall? What is their context? Are they multi-ethnic? Do they have African or Black ancestry, that's relatively recent? I think that impacts how you view yourself as an officer, or are you of a non-White background that's of uh international heritage, right? Is your family recent and you recent to the States or is your perspective disassociated so to speak from historical experiences of non-White folks in America? It's … it's been very interesting. I told one of my interns this past summer that I consider it my penance. It’s one of my penances for being a prosecutor that I do need to have these conversations with the law enforcement I'm still on good terms with. That's been rough this pandemic, um yeah. I want to give you a chance to ask another question Lily I know I just gave you a data dump there.

1:05:36 LJ

I just I’m so disappointed that uh we can't be having this discussion face to face um probably uh but I first want to say thank you, coming from a law student, for all the work that you do that uh I I'm in my last year so these past three years learning about different injustices that the that the law sometimes mostly orchestrates uh it, thank you for doing the work that you do and it's really inspiring to hear because sometimes you can feel a little stuck while you're in law school. And I also--

1:06:13 JBB:

Yes.

1:06:14 LJ

I say thank you um for all the work you've done for all communities in which you're a part of and also I say thank you as a daughter for what your daughter's will say one day um for the work you do in being there as a father and those walks really mean something so. I say

1:06:34 JBB

Thank you. I hope that. I hope they do, I believe

1:06:36 LJ

Without a doubt without a doubt daughters are the best! “daughters are the best!” [laughter] that was uh yeah quoting the late great Kobe Bryant there, so.

1:06:52 JBB

oh I did I want to add something actually before you ask the next question. Um see you got (anything) because you [audio cuts out] hoping my daughter are proud. So I, you've lived through this now the election, um, (all the brutality, the insurrection, things like that). Can we just talk about that? Like, I’m literally on an interview, we're interviewing candidates for a senior position at SPLC, on the day of the insurrection. One of our, our candidates is in his office working blocks from the insurrection, as the insurrection is unfolding, as we're all watching it on TV and also on zoom interviewing him. And we asked him “Sir, do we need to reschedule because I'm not paying [attention] -- I felt unfortunate for him, like my mind was just gone. I was I couldn't, I could not focus on the interview with someone especially someone who's, who could be overtaken by the mob. And I didn't know what was gonna happen with those folks uh, during the interview. He's like, he's like “uh, I feel sufficiently safe. Let's keep at this.” So we went through the interview. I feel for him, cuz Bod bless him for pushing through that interview but I don't think anyone was focused, uh, to the level we would have been had the insurrection not been going on, but I was (very clipped). And I didn't know what to feel when that thing happened, right? And then I'm sitting there and I'm thinking about, if these people have succeeded in overcoming the federal government, what would that have meant for me and my people? When I say my people, I mean, not only my family, but African Americans, uh recent African immigrants, just people who have who are melanin complected. What is that gonna mean for us? Uh and my mother in law had been berating us since Donald Trump's election. She also worked for Hillary’s campaign in North Carolina. She was pissed uh when those results came in. Um she'd been campaigning for us to quote on quote, blackxit, or b-l-a-x-i-t, hashtag, um which is basically black folks making an exodus out of America to countries where we are not going to be so overtly persecuted, and a lot of people are looking to the African continent, especially South Africa, or South America. And to that end, my mother had, my mother in law had found land in Ghana had gone over pre pandemic, beginning of the pandemic, to scope out the land and secure land deal. Um but what we learned is in many African nations, um foreigners cannot own land, they can just own decades long leases. And so the deal kind of fell through. Uh but she was trying to find other countries where we could be. And my wife is of African extraction, right from her father is from West Africa, so we were obviously we were hoping to choose a country, her father's from Guinea. So being in Guinea would be great, but they keep going through turmoil, coups, uh Ebola, and there was COVID. It's just it’s just a mess so choosing Guinea wasn't gonna be great. Um but anyways all that said and this is all passing through my mind right? As the as the day wears on like this country is unstable, is it safe for me to raise my kids here? I have sufficient means that I can leave with my wife and we can either find jobs in our professions or we can start over but we have a cushion with which to do it. Um and then that night I was pissed because I looked at the the federal legislators who were promoting this for months, the build up who had incensed the mob during the Stop the Steal Rally. And then who ultimately still voted to oppose the electoral votes. Not that I agree with the Electoral College as a system but by God, if you're going to hold to a system generally then hold to it. Um, and so I was pissed. I mean, livid, incensed, I don't know what how many SAT vocab words you want, but I felt it. And it was tied to, I felt, I also felt complete, because my family's from the Deep South, I work in Alabama, born and raised in Florida, but my family my mom’s people are from southern Alabama and a lot of them are still here. And I reconnected with them since moving back, moving to the state. And I knew that if we fled, I couldn’t take those folks, because a lot of those folks don't have the means or the privilege to be able to relocate internationally and do so comfortably. Um, so what does that look like if I [audio cut out] but I leave my grandmother, my cousins, my great aunts and uncles. Um my parents could manage it. I mean, but there'd be a lot of family we'd be leaving behind. That’s rough. That’s so [unintelligible] my wife's family that's just about mine, but her family’s in North Carolina. That’s, it's (mind numbingly) rough. So I was pissed, um [audio cuts out] new CEO. And I said “hey, I don't know what the organization is going to do. But I don't want it to be some passe statement. I want us to do something.” Um I said, you know, some of these legislators are lawyers. And they're from our states where we have offices, you know, maybe we could do (bar complaints) I don't know whatever. But I was like, I'm just pissed.” And she [the CEO] said I like your idea. Put me together a proposal and roll with it. So we just filed a complaint against representative Mo Brooks of, Alabama, since he was the, so to speak congressional progenitor of all this mess. We filed it, what day is today Wednesday? We filed it Monday.

And because as a Black man, I didn't just want this to be you know, legalistic, I got to thinking –

I'm gonna shout out a couple professors while I'm at this that helped me coalesce into the kind of a practitioner I am. Professor Sharon Rush, Professor Michelle Jacobs, Professor Katherine Russell-Brown, Professor Elizabeth Roe, all of UF law school. Professor Rush, I took a course with her. I, well first, Jacobs, took critical race theory as well as criminal law. And I really enjoyed it. I didn't even know critical race scholarship existed and I loved it. I'm so thankful to her for having that course and introducing me to it. And Professor Rush, did a comparative constitutional law course that was an extension of a South Africa study abroad program I participated in. And she gave me the Book Award for my work in that course, and I appreciate that. But also Professor Rush said, we should always strive to infuse lived experience into our advocacy, in our analysis.

So when we did the bar complaint, I didn't just say, Oh, he said that statement, they’re lies. Yeah, you did all that. But we also tried to infuse or inject a racial component, racial justice component. Um so I discuss how these actions, his contributions to the insurrection mirror, the actions of attorney orators and attorney organizers uh from Reconstruction. Who organized a lot of political violence or extrajudicial violence or participated in it. And again, this was like an itch in the back of my head, but as I delved into it and tried to research it, it was revelatory, how consistent the behaviors were. I don't I don’t even know how to explain to you. It's I just wanted to stop everything I was doing and delve even further into Reconstruction history and politics to better understand the parallels between now and then.

Um, how many attorneys participate in violence? How many attorneys were orators like Representative Brooks, in stoking the violence? How many attorneys then went on to illustrious political careers or continued their political careers after openly participating in this violence? How there were Plans, literal plans put together with a capital P to oversee this kind of violence (chicanery) in southern States at the tail end of Reconstruction. So I ended up starting a super footnote. My teammates were like, “yeah, Jonathan, this is a lot. We should make this an appendix.” And we made a separate appendix.

I was also disturbed because we did the process how no one was calling what had happened “sedition” or “treason.” And yeah, some journalists did. But none of the prosecution's that have come out with the DOJ have said as much, and even my, some of my colleagues were like “Jonathan, I don't know if this is treason.” And I said, “what do you mean? You literally oppose the lawful progress of power in this country? How's that not treasonous?” [they said] “Jonathan I don’t I don't know if your interpretation of federal treason law applies.” I said, “okay.” So we research for many, many late night hours. Uh this project’s been going on for two months now. And I found some ancient case law, when I say ancient, I mean, like dusted off just after the American Revolution 1700s. In one case, from pre-civil war or on the eve of the Civil War, that basically supported my interpretation of treason, which is you can commit domestic treason by supporting insurrection or opposing the lawful administration of federal law. So what do they oppose these, the Mo Brooks or (buddies to help stoke) allegedly? (I have to say), allegedly. uh the Congress's constitutional as well as legislative duty to proceed with the electoral college votes and certify them. And I believe his statements convinced or persuaded, an alarming group of people to oppose it and interfere with it, halt it, almost successfully permanently. So we put that in the bar complaint. Um (we’ll see what the) Alabama bar does with it. We publicized it. Part of the reason we did it was just because we all felt that the attorney legislators like Representative Brooks need to be held accountable. But also, after doing this Reconstruction research, there's the public. Well, first off Reconstruction isn’t taught in schools. And now I know and believe it should be most definitely. A lot of our current drama legally and politically, is, is, it's like leftovers from our failed reconciliation during Reconstruction.

But I also noted that in historical records, you almost didn't always have, like, I can’t find any indication that any of these attorneys were disciplined for Reconstruction. Uh one case was very informative, (uh In re or In re Wall), as a US Supreme Court case dealing with, it wasn't tied to Reconstruction, but it was post-Reconstruction, dealing with a disciplined attorney down in Florida for participating in a lynching of an immigrant. The Federal Court disbarred him from federal practice in Florida, but the Florida Bar Association did not. And this was back in the late 1800s. And he went on to become like, the State Senate President, [FL] Bar president, criminal judge, prominent family, I mean, just my mind was just blown. Uh but that was one that was one case from that time, but I found that discipline, that there isn't a lot of information. And I don't know what could be lost as the years go by. So this bar complaint is also a public record, in the sense that it is curated. It isn't I don't know how many footnotes is in that thing. But footnotes of all the articles that kind of talk about all the parties involved, statements that are made, directs you to primary resources, both audio visual, as well as social media, as well as journalism, it directs you, to a lot, a lot of information. So in a sense, whether or not the [AL] Bar makes a decision, or disciplines, Representative Brooks, I want there to be some type of artifact that somebody was pissed enough to ask for accountability. And somebody put together a concrete amount of information that future generations can look to and understand why some attorneys felt his behavior was so egregious, and what were they reading? What were they experiencing? What were they living through? And what were the effects? You know, because sometimes as years go by things become sanitized. A massacre happened, yes. But what did that look like in the time it happened as it unrolled? What was the living impact of people's lives? Um so I include stuff in there about how, you know, law enforcement officers who worked it and defended it suffered injuries, how there's been a trend in suicide attempts or self-harm by officers who defended the US Capitol against the insurrection. The ones who died, the fact that Black officers suffered disparaging remarks and treatment by some of the insurrectionists.The fact that they felt betrayed by some of their own professional compatriots during that process in that time. Um just all of that, right, just throw it in there. Because I did not want the Bar to think or the future generation to think this is just a simple matter. (This is all told) uh serious misrepresentations, lies, that materially affected people's lives. And this has happened before, so to speak for America. And here, let me make it plain and obvious to you how this happened before.

So that was, that was something I did.

And I was scared to do that, right? Because I come from a background where it's been dangerous historically, for Black people to be too vocal in asserting themselves, right? You become too successful or too loud, or catch too much attention. And sometimes you catch a bullet, or some other type of fatal encounter. Um and that's real. That's only been like, like 60 years ago. And so my family on both sides has suffered some violence uh of the historical kind that you see movies or read about in history books. And so that is a very real concern. And my mother, in fact, was trying to persuade me not to put my name on the Bar complaint, because she didn't know what the response might be, from insurrectionists or their sympathizers. My mother in law, on the other hand - very fiery woman - was like, “put your name on it! and let's do this, and let's go on a speaking tour.” I was like, “okay, Ma. I don’t know about all that.” But that is that is something I wrestled with. I had to consult several people and I waffled about whether or not, how far to go with being public about it or my participation. So yeah, but one of the reasons I did it is because I wanted my daughters to know, whenever they read about their father for whatever kind of life he lived, or had, (decisions he) made, uh he grew to a point where he pushed, he said, “enough was enough.” Um and he pushed back in a way that was sensitive to his lived experience, um and the experience of his relatives, his ancestors and the experiences that his daughters might come to have or experiences they’re children might come to have. So we'll see how it all goes down.

Um but that is one thing I've done during this pandemic that uh stems in part of my concern for how my daughters and whatever other kids I may have, will get to the lives they get to lead. Whether or not it will be freer than mine, freer than their grandparents and my great-grandparents, or whether or not, we cycle backwards. And they're living under conditions comparable to their grandparents, and their great-grandparents. I would hate for my daughters to be less free than I am and (I'm making [unintelligible] feel 100% free). Um, and so I did this and participated in this project, to show them that I'm advocating for them. Uh and to show myself that it is okay to push the envelope, and push social norms and boundaries and fear lines that have been ingrained uh into some communities. So we'll see, we'll see what posterity and the Alabama Bar and everyone else thinks of the project, the initiative and the work, um. But I yeah, I don't, I don't know if I could have uh lived with myself in decades to come if I had not chosen to push forward in this type of advocacy. So yeah, I'm sorry. It's just when you mentioned daughters being proud that triggered the thoughts.

1:24:34 LJ

Thank you for sharing. That was great. No, uh thank you for sharing that. I, I have I have no more questions to ask, um, In that I felt you covered so much both as your experience in this time as an as an attorney, as an advocate, as a Black man in America. Um So I have I will end the recording there.

1:24:59 JBB

Oh, okay.

1:25:00 LJ

If you have anything else to say…

1:25:03 JBB

um I just want to uplift every, um every attorney, every advocate, community organizer, uh who's working during the pandemic. I know everyone in every profession, in every sector of society are doing a lot of work and struggle. But I really want to lift up folks who are in the public interest, in civil rights spaces. It's, your work, your job, and your work is already tough, emotionally caring for things that a lot of people don't want to care about per se, because it impacts the marginalized vote. Uh but then to sustain that kind of emotional, psychological energy, during a pandemic, when all you’re wanting to do is kind of curl up in your home and eat comfort food, and binge watch Netflix and be with your family? Um it’s, it's taxing, and I do worry about what is going to happen to our practitioners and our advocates, after the pandemic. Is there going to, because there’s burnout, it is real. I'm watching people drop like flies, both at the SPLC and other organizations. Are people going to permanently burn out of this? We gonna lose institutional knowledge and prowess from these spaces? Um are we going to be so fatigued from the pandemic that these assaults on civil liberties and constitutional rights are incessant? Um but post-pandemic are we going to be so fatigued from what we were doing during the pandemic to respond to an extraordinary experience, that we don't have energy to fight what we would normally fight or push back against? Um I worry, I do. And I worry for folks sustaining themselves. And I worry for law students like yourself who may say, woof, I'm trying to pay these debts because y’all’s legal education costs are exorbitant compared to what I paid. Um now you're going to choose for your own self survival and your family, to go and maybe take jobs that aren't what you wanted spiritually, or emotionally, or passion wise, but they're going to pay the bills and keep your head above water? Uh or will that delay you entering the fray of civil rights and public interest work? Or will it, I won’t call it discolor. But will it maybe prevent you from developing a racial justice and poverty lens? Poverty, racial justice, and environmental justice lends to the work you're doing or could do, which is important. Um, I’m just worried.

(So good luck to you) and everyone else that’s doing this project as well as finishing up their legal education. I hope the world that you’re going to enter as a lawyer can sustain you and also fulfill you. Um I think it's important that everyone knows that this work is tough. And I don't consider myself by any mean one of the toughest in the trenches, advocates in the space. I'm relatively new to the space and this work. But um I do have concerns about how we’ll sustain ourselves. So good luck, take care of yourself, always and this is to you, as well as anyone else who may (read) this. Always make time for you. Whether it be to walk to exercise, preserve your sanity, no matter the job, this profession will treat you as fungible. Um so if they're not doing the work you want to get done, or you're feeling abused in the process of doing the work, then leave. Go find somewhere else or find another way to do the work, okay? Um, but at the end of the day, the work can't be done and the cause can't be sustained if you're burnt out, cast aside from callous working conditions, right? So preserve your sanity.

And sometimes it's hard to know that as a young attorney, because we're so zealous to prove ourselves and to do the work, to actually not be reading (treatises) and books and to actually do practical work. I get it. I was there working at the prosecutor's office like eight, nine o'clock at night, working on weekends, for cases. Making peanuts, but feeling that my work mattered for victims and community safety. But also not treating myself well, having a horrible diet, being unhealthy physically. And my wife had to show me just how bad it got. So please protect yourself. Protect your sanity, protect your peace, protect your joy, because you are a better advocate when you protect all that for yourself, um, and you're a better communicator when you're in a space to receive pain and suffering that people are sharing with you and then translating that into advocacy and litigation. So those are just my final thoughts for you as well as for everyone else in this project for posterity.

1:30:15 LJ

Thank you. Thank you so much.