00:03 NA

All right, great. So good morning. I am a second year law student at UCLA law. And I'm currently volunteering with the COVID behind bars data project. So I wanted to start by Thank you, thanking you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to speak with me today and this conversation will be recorded. Just a little disclaimer, I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we're about to have. Our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public and portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. I want our conversation to flow freely, and I realized that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mention a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it now, at the end of the interview or later on after further reflection. We are happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it's made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and the recording. So now if you could please introduce yourself, your name, organization and the types of cases you're working on.

01:13 AS

Hi, My name is Arielle Sharma, I work with CPCS, which is a public defender's office over in Massachusetts and specifically in Worcester County. Throughout the pandemic, I was working with CPCS originally, so again working with the public defender's office originally. And then I did a year with a group called, “lawyers for civil rights.” And now I'm back with the public defender's office.

01:42 NA

Great, so can you tell me more specifically about work you did before the pandemic and then after the pandemic and how it shifted or change, including like what you did during and transferring to remote and stuff?

02:00 AS

Yeah. So I guess the question I have is like do or you're trying to focus on the the work that we did, or like our clients experiences, some combination of the two?

02:10 NA

Yeah, I think some combination of the two, just anything that kind of gets to the gist of describing your work during COVID, and how the pandemic impacted populations of people, especially those incarcerated.

02:21 AS

Cool, okay, so, um, so like I said, I was a public defender when the pandemic started. And so I very much and so the way that we work with incarcerated people, is like 90 to 99% people who are in short term, or theoretically short term incarceration being held pre-trial. You know, a very small percentage of our clients are already incarcerated on other crimes, and we still represented them on something that's open. While I was with lawyers for civil rights (LCR), I did a very little bit of work with people in immigration detention. But I think that a majority of the work that I did that having to do with people who are incarcerated was through my work then and currently as a public defender. And so at the very beginning of the pandemic, you know, obviously a part a large part of our job is going to the jails, and meeting with people who are trying to get out of jail or trying to fight their case. Another part of our job is doing the event arraignment session. So like when someone gets arrested, the first thing that happens in court is that they come in front of a judge, and the judge has to decide whether or not they're going to get some amount of bail to let them go. Or if they're just going to let them do what's called, like a promise to appear, right? So we spend a lot of times at the jail, we spend a lot of time with people who have just recently been arrested, which can meet, you know, maybe somebody who's only going to spend 24 hours in a sheriff's lockup, but it's still incarceration. And certainly people who are feeling it, especially for the first time feel that. And so, you know, the pandemic changed a ton of things and just, you know, if I was to sum it up, I'd say it just made our job 100 times harder. Um, so, you know, what, so a large part of what I do is bridging the gap between the individual, you know, your everyday individual, and the judges who sit on the bench. A lot of times there's, you know, there's class divides, there's cultural divides, there's race divides. And there's just a divide in education and understanding, right, like not most of the people that we represent are not lawyers, they don't really understand the criminal justice system. Or if they do, it's only through being in, you know, caught up in it multiple times because they've been arrested before or whatever. And so, what we really try to do is make our clients human because it's really easy for the court system to just churn out people, right? We see hundreds of people probably every day go through our county court. And so I should say Worcester is one of the big Cities in Massachusetts, Worcester County covers a, a, we're the largest CPCS public defender office. And so we go to a number of smaller courts that are sort of set in different parts of the district. And then we also have main Worcester County. And so main Worcester County notes is a ton of volume. And I think it's really easy for judges and prosecutors, and even for us as public defenders to start to see people as, oh, I've seen this case before, like I know who this person is. And really what my job is, is to get, to dig a little deeper, right, and to be able to, to make someone look and understand for the judge understand that these are human beings, they're individuals with feelings, and families, and hopes and troubles and all of that kind of stuff. And that becomes extremely hard when the judges get the out to not actually have to look at your client. And that's what the pandemic really did, right. So a lot of things went virtual, at the beginning of the pandemic, obviously, we suddenly weren't allowed in our office, we weren't allowed to access our files, we didn't have a good online system. So there was all of that. And then on top of it, all our clients with being zoomed into court, which is just not good, frankly. And so that, like there's a couple of different ways, I feel like there's a lot to say about it. So I'm not sure that I'm doing this in the in the most linear fashion, but I'll just sort of go where I'm, go where I'm going. And you can stop me for clarification as we go along.

06:34 NA

Yeah, of course.

06:35 AS

Um, and so there's a couple different ways. So you know, the first thing that really comes to mind is the arraignment session, so you get arrested, and supposedly, within 72 hours by law, you have to be in front of a judge. And this change tremendously. So first of all, in the first weeks of the pandemic, none of the courthouses were set up for video, right? Like, even now, some of the courts can't, don't have like a video set up that you can get from the lockup, it's in the basement to upstairs because like, there's no Wi Fi, or there's no one else, who knows? And God forbid, like you have a hard wire thing, or of course, bring your client actually into the courtroom.

But so the very first week, what we were doing was going to the sheriff's office, as opposed to the courthouse, meeting with people at the police station, and then doing the arraignments by phone. So me and my client are on phone to the judge who's in a different building can't see either one of us. I can't see him or her and I can't see what anyone else is doing right. And you know, some of the time, they won't even let us into the police station, and we're calling into the police station, and then three waying into the clerk's office and then three waying in to the judge. And then I guess at this point, we're like five waying the DA in, right. And so everyone's just on the phone, not able to see anyone not able to do anything real.

And who even knows who hears what, and who's understanding what, you know, a lot of people haven't been through the criminal justice system, they have no idea what's going on. And my ability to like explain or to really understand whether or not they're understanding me is extremely hindered by not being able to look at their face and use body language. And that's not even to mention, like when we start talking about people who needed translators, right. That's a whole nother level of crazy, that's like, still hasn't really been solved. And so that, but that was like the first few weeks, right? And then for the most part after that, we started doing things by video. But that didn't really solve anything, right? Because like, so what they started doing after, you know, attorneys like me and others in my office, were putting up a fussing, like, look, we can't do it like this. We can't just like they have a right to be seen. We can't just be doing this ad hoc. Oh, we're going to call everybody and like hope everyone listens sort of thing. And so, you know, we started making a big fuss of like, No, my client has to be at least in the courthouse and they said okay, and honestly the police stations didn't like us being back there. Right. It was like the into their secret world attorneys aren't supposed to see.

And so they started bringing them back into the courthouse. And so in most courthouses out here, you have like the courtrooms upstairs and then lock ups in the basement, which is, you know, various cells. And there'll be brought in from the police station in the morning or into the county jail and then to the courthouse. But the judges and the DA’s still, and largely the judges, I should really say still didn't want them actually in the courthouse ,or in the courtroom. So then what we were doing was we went down and we talked to them in lockup, and then we'd have to come up or stay downstairs with them and zoom with our clients into the courtroom. Right and so I already started to mention like a lot of these there don't have WiFi they don't have good cell reception. I mean a lot of these courthouses, right you couldn't make a call without leaving the courthouse and like even getting in your car and driving 10 minutes before you had cell reception. So like you can imagine what the WiFi setup there is right? And so in the beginning, what we were doing is like, okay, so, you know, and I'm picturing Worcester County in particular. Okay, so I talked to my client, the and the one good thing that came out of it, as they started bringing them to a separate room, we used to just like chat with them, while they're in a cell with like, 20 other people. So at least now we had a little bit more privacy, so that's a positive, although it did make everything sort of move a lot slower. Which again, I'm not against except for, like people who could have gotten out, you know, in one hour instead of in four hours. So anyway, so they bring us over to like the little processing room, and we'd be sitting there directly next to our clients. So like, remember, they're all worried about social distancing, you know, we're camping up to the courtroom, because people are going to get are going to be in danger. And yet us and the court officers are spending all our time in like, close, close proximity, right, because they don't have two cameras. So basically, I'm here, my client has to be here so that we can both be on camera and see the judge.And then we realized, where I realized, I think a lot of others, you know, when we go upstairs to watch other people do arraignments that you can't hear anything from downstairs, right? So you find out that yeah, making all these great arguments, but the judge can hear half of it, and no one bothers to tell, you know, suddenly, your entire bail argument has just been ignored. Which, you know, that cynical part of me is, you know, that's always what the judges wanted to do anyways, right? Now they can do the law without human beings involved. Um, and so. So yeah, so then we have to start making the decision, like, Okay, well, my client, they're still not going to let him up there. And like, you know, I'll put all the objections on the record about a sixth amendment rights and his eighth amendment rights and right to confrontation, and 14th amendment and equal protection, and blah, blah, blah. And I didn't, you know, they deny or whatever. So they're still downstairs. And so my clients often zoom into the courtroom. And I can either sit downstairs and know that the judge can hear me or sit upstairs and know that my client can hear me and that I can communicate with my client. And you know, it is a really key part of representation to be able to have your client be like, Oh, no, like you made that mistake, or like, oh, no, add this, or, you know, the judge will ask questions like, “Where can you go?”,”Where's he working?”,And you might not have asked that particular client, that particular thing?And at that point, like, you have to, you don't have an answer. And you can't say, oh, let me see if it's back, I'll run downstairs. And so either your client has to answer directly, which is not always great. Because sometimes, you know, they want to tell other parts of the story that aren't necessarily good for their long term case, because they don't understand the whole process, right, they want to start talking about, oh, but I didn't do this. And I didn't do that. And I, you know, she's lying about this. And most of the time, you know, as much as I really do believe in giving voice to the clients. The judges don't like it. And like when the goal is to get you out today, we do sort of like run that balance, right of interference of trying to explain that and until, again, a lot harder when I don't have my client right next to me to be able to, or when they have questions of Okay, so what just happened? Where am I going? What do I have to do? My being held? How do I post bail? Suddenly, all of that doesn't get answered in real time. And that's just really stressful for them.

13:16 NA

Yeah. And then you mentioned how the judges always kind of want to ignore and just deny bail and things like that. But how more so not being able to see a human made that even worse? Do you feel like your clients were like more keenly aware of how little attention judges were giving to them? Like they were aware of how it impacted them and aware of that lack of communication? Like was it something that, like, heavily impacted on their awareness? Or was it just something you noticed as a lawyer and advocate?

13:40 AS

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good question. I think it certainly depends. You know, when we're talking specifically about arraignments, I think. I think the people who have been through the system enough to know like what it's supposed to be like, sort of recognize it, like it didn't really matter, and they're not really like. And to be frank, like most of the people who have been through who have churned through the system that many times are addicted to something or other and they're detoxing. So like, they're not necessarily entirely like following what's going on. And people who haven't, like they're just so confused that like, they don't know what's going on. But I think that the confusion is definitely more real, like, they just had no idea what would be happening. And so, you know, you go back downstairs. And, you know, I'd say good attorneys always go back and follow up with your clients. Unless in the meantime, the jail has come and they've got they're gone. And like now we can talk about the difficulties and getting to the jail, but and then like you miss that. So it's really came down to the court officers having to explain to them like, oh, no, you're being held or like this is what's going to happen next, which is not their job, like they're not lawyers, they don't necessarily know. Although we are lucky in our county to have really, really good court officers and I know that's not the case everywhere. But I do think that there's definitely a couple of things, right.

So there's a heightened level of confusion for sure. Which is sort of like confusion and stress really goes together, right? Because you just don't know what's going on. And this is your life, and suddenly you're being led away. In cuffs, you didn't hear anything that went on upstairs. And I think it certainly does harm our relationship with our clients and like their trust in us. Because you know, that's a bailment is the first time that they see you advocate on their behalf. And if they can't hear what you're saying, and then they get held on top of it, you know, there's a feeling of collusion, that becomes much more prominent, so a lot of like, a lot of people believe that the defense attorneys are just sort of colluding with the DA and the judge to get them held. And like, I completely understand that in a lot of ways, I obviously don't, don't do that. But I understand why it's that feeling. And like, to a certain extent, we are cogs of the system, right? We are sort of, as much as I like to think about it as bridging the gap, we're also sort of making it more…part of bridging that gap is making sort of people who are rough around the edges or otherwise, not who the judges normally hang out with more palatable to them. And I hate to sort of put it that way. But that's really the truth, right is like presenting them in the best light, and trying to either hide or like, minimize things that aren't that the judge isn't going to like, or even when it's just like, it's really not that big a deal. But it's just sort of like, these cultural things like the way they talk or the way that they live or whatever, that aren't crimes, but like really affect, you know, the outcome more than actual facts and things like that. Um, so I lost track of what we were, what I was trying to answer [laughs].

16:57 NA

Just the kind of the clients kind of view of the system and kind of seeing you all colluding.

17:05 AS

Yeah, and so I think that definitely adds to that, right, because they are 100% out of the picture. So still now, what we're doing is that they don't have to come to court unless there's like an evidentiary hearing or a trial or something like that, or a plea or something substantive happening. And I get a lot of like, I tell clients that because I think it's easier said, right, you don't have to take a day off work, you don't have to sit in the courtroom for five hours just to see me get a date, which I think is nice. But a lot of clients do say like, well, I don't know, like, I want the judge to know, I'm taking it seriously. And I like I want to know what happens. And like, they really have to trust me to give them a full picture of what happens when I tell them like yeah, don't don't worry about showing up. And for a long time, they weren't even allowed to show up, right, they come to the door and they get turned away.

17:53 NA

And was that something they knew ahead of time? Like that, they wouldn't be able to show up, or it was just turned away at the door.

18:00 AS

So it depends, you know, hopefully, at arraignment, we get some good contact information. But a lot of times that contact information changes or for whatever reason, we don't have a way to contact them. And so you know, we do our best to call everybody and talk to everybody. I've definitely started texting way more than I ever did before. Because, you know, people don't necessarily answer numbers that they don't recognize or know how to enter their voicemails or have them set up. And so like, you know, we tried to give our clients a Heads up, heads up, but like a lot of them don't get the don't hear that or don't get that. And then, you know, in the beginning, when they were still sort of figuring out, there was a lot of confusion. It's like is court open? Is court closed? Courts open today. But tomorrow, it just closed right like? courts were closing all over the place for people getting sick in the courthouse, and then they closed the whole court down. Which in terms of incarcerated folks was like, I mean, I had more than one client who would be scheduled for an arraignment or like a bail revocation. So in Massachusetts, you can be held without bail on to for two reasons. One is what's called the dangerousness hearing, so under certain charges, the DA can file and say I don't think he has, you know, he's too dangerous to be let out. Let's have and then you get a whole hearing about it. The second is if you're out on bail, and then you pick up a new charge, you violate a condition of release, and then they can hold you without bail for 90 days. And so on both of those, you know, you're held for some amount of time and then we get to go into court and argue about why you should be released. And so, you know, what was happening especially in the beginning is that I remember very much so actually one a dangerousness hearing that I had was I had this kid who was significantly mentally ill. Well, it took him like 30 to 40 days before he could even like before he got into a man he had like a psychotic break like before you could even get into a mental state to talk to us to talk to the court for anything to happen. And it just so happened that we had him scheduled. Actually, you know, I don't remember if he was dangerousness or bail revocation or it may have even just been the first arraignment, because he was so like just doing so badly that they didn't do the full thing. But I was supposed to have him in court on was it March 11, which was the day after everything shut down. And so at that point, it was just like, Okay, we're all shutting down for a week, we're just going to close it off, nothing's happening. And so they postponed his court day for another week. So now he's being held for an additional week. And this happened not just to him, right, who's already been in jail for a while, but people who had been in for like a day or two days, or who just held over should have just been held over the weekend. And suddenly, we're being held beyond that. Because Massachusetts, they suspended like speedy trial rights and some other some other things. And so, okay, cool. So he's held, you know, for a week, the first day, there wasn't even anyone I could put a fuss up to right. Like, he's held, like, let him out pending, blah, blah, blah. Because they there's closed down and they didn't even give us any notice. We just got like an email saying, hey, no court tomorrow, try to keep working somehow.

21:11 NA

No Contact working from home to help you all right?

21:12 AS

Well, right, exactly. Yeah, we got so one of the that first week one of our officemates had gotten COVID. And so they shut down our whole office, like no one was allowed in. You remember, like, no one really knew, how does it transmit and like what, you know, nobody knew anything about anything. It was all just exceedingly stressful. Um, and so and at this point, right, I'm not allowed back in the jail, because I can't so I can't even go talk to him.

He can't call me because the office phones are in the office. Eventually, you know, after like two or three weeks, they figured out how to forward them to our cell phones. Um, but the first week, like, you know, no one's in the office, you can only call the office number because like to secure his phones and all that. And so he just had no one to get in contact with and a lot of client, right, they had no one to talk to about what was going on, except for the COs, which are not as good as our court officers. And we're just, I mean, like, when the vaccines came around, they were I had clients tell me like, oh, no, I'm not getting it. Because the CO’s told me that there's this experimenting on us. Which like, I mean, if you've done like five seconds of jail history, right, especially if you're black or brown person, you're like, Yeah, that sounds right. Thanks for telling me Mr. CO. Obviously, it was not true in this case. As far as we know. Yeah. Um, but like, so. I mean, the the jails were just such a fucking disaster. Excuse my language. So he got postponed that first day. And then the next week, we do another, you know, we have another argument. And that's what his 120 days were up. So he should have been getting a bail, because he had already been held without, for and you can be held up to 120 days on a bail revocation. He had picked up two cases.

23:06 AS

And so, okay, so the first week, I couldn't, you know, there's nothing I could do about it. Because like, there's no one to even talk to. The second week. I started, like, I just started writing and filing motions, by email, or fax, which no one was in the courthouse. So did it really matter? I don't know.

But at some time...[talking over each other].

23:26 NA

Just to feel like you were doing something?

23:27 AS

That I mean, we did a lot of channeling into writing, in a way that was, was it effective or not? I don't know. But so I put it, you know, I wrote this whole long thing about like, speedy trial rights. And, yeah, they had suspended the speedy trial. But that doesn't mean that the 120 days should be suspended, and, you know, all kinds of there's like a really, really long sort of thing. And they get it and they just go nope, denied. You know, we're, we're postponing it again. And of course, the next week, they postponed it again, because we're still not open, still don't know what's going on. And then we get into, you know, the third week where so this particular court didn't have zoom set up. So all of these things are being done by me on the phone them on the phone, judge at home clerk in the courthouse, DA on the phone. And so now, you know, at some point, it was like, I don't want to do a hearing like this by phone. I want at least one of us being able to look at the judge. But like what are the options? I just don't argue it. And then he gets held forever, like what are we going to do? And so we did it by phone, and he doesn't get released. But I didn't you know, I did like a 20 minute hearing where I'm just arguing into the ether walking around my house like hoping somebody's listening to me. And it just like it's so freaking bizarre, right?

Like, it's just so weird. And it didn't work and like honestly, I really truly believe like if they looked at this kid and like been able to see him, it would have been different. And I did end up appealing it on… because then we sort of doing COVID motions, which is a whole nother sort of thing. So I didn't end up appealing and he did get out like a week later. I then had to pick him up from the jail because at that point, no Uber and lifts were running. And I was like, I mean, I don't know, like, I'm not gonna let you walk to Attleboro, which is seven hours by foot.

Yeah, we're a big County. Yeah. And like, on the highway. And so, you know, at the height of COVID, I pick this kid up from the jail, and like, we spend an hour and a half in traffic, right next to each other. And he obviously has, you know, struggles with mental illness can't keep his mask on. And I'm just sitting there like, you know, this is not safe for me, I'm, you know, I'm I have my own health issues, my family has made their own health issues. Well, like, what am I going to do? Just leave him here to walk in those stupid jail shoes that they give him? Like, don't even stay on your feet? Like, yeah, what are my options? And I think that that's really like a prevalent feeling among public defenders throughout this whole thing is like, what are my options, right? I don't want to be going to the jails, but I'm not going to let him sit there, right. Like, that's I, at the end of the day, like we are their only lifeline, their only source of information, they're only like, the only person that they feel like they can turn to, they should be able to feel like they can turn to to be like fighting for them. And the amount of times that we had to just tell people, like, I know, you're sitting here in jail, but like, it's out of my hands, which we already do on a regular basis. But at least I can say, but we're going to go to court, and this is what's going to happen, this is what's going to happen, that's what's going to happen after that. And like just not being able to give anyone any information about like what the future is even going to look like. Um, it's just, I mean, it's terrible for us. And it's terrible for them. Right? Because like, the whole point of being a lawyer is like a little bit of that control issue, right? That like you want to know, and be able to predict and like have some sense of what's going to happen. And it just feels like since the pandemic started, like who the hell knows, everything's a mess all the time. People are dying all over the place. Like, it's just. And that's the other thing really, right is like it this height, we're always sort of desperate to get people out of jail, right? Because we recognize how terrible it is just on a regular basis. But now you have this really, this very, very real fact that people are actually getting sick and dying. And they're not managing, they certainly weren't managing it well in the beginning, right where they all what they did, was just put everybody in 23 hour lockdown. And so clients were telling me like, you know, they didn't have masks, or they were given one disposable face mask, I was supposed to last them for months. You know, guys, we're wearing like socks over their faces and like whatever they could find. Most of the [unintelligible] had like one disinfected bottle that they had to like, pass around to everybody, no hand sanitizer, they're still double celled, you know, all all of the regular thing. And then they are in 23 hour lockdown. And like, again, these are people who've maybe never been to jail before who have never, you know, and who didn't do anything like they can't get out. They can't, at some point, and something like a year in, they finally allowed started letting God everybody tablets, they could at least make phone calls from their cells. But at the beginning, they had to make phone calls from the tear and like so you have, you know how many guys one using the same phone, all trying to use it within 45 minutes that they let them out. And it was just like an utter disaster. And then at some point, they started using these pods, which is what they're still doing. So like you're quarantined with your block, and everything you do is with your block, which is you know, at least something and then you know, you get out a little bit more. But what they also do is when somebody has to go to court now, they still put them all on the same little tiny van, send it to court, bring them back and then send them out to their various pods. So I had a guy just like a few, I guess just a few weeks ago now, who was very sick with COVID. And afterwards I was talking to him and again, he's just another guy who was being held on “dangerousness”. We were supposed to have a hearing. He got COVID and then the DA got COVID. Next thing you know, it's you know, a month and a half past one he could have gotten out and he ended up getting out when we finally did the hearing. But that was a call that we had to make if they continue postponing it because it was better to have him in person. Right. So, yeah, so he got COVID. And he was telling me that yeah, they tested me, I tested positive. my cellmate tested negative and then they still sell this together for the next two weeks.

[Interviewer makes shocked face which is what AS is responding too]

Yeah, it's what like, they said they knew that.

29:37 NA

That's insane.

29:39 AS

It's wildly offensive. And he was telling me like, look like, you know, I'm young. I'm 20 I'm 20 years, not even 20 years old. I'm 19 years old. But this guy he's like in his 50s he has all these health problems like I don't want to be responsible for killing him once right and it's so it just so you know people like to talk talk about people as criminals. And like these bad people who have no sense of community or affection or any or responsibility, right, and here you have this 19 year old kid saying, like the thing, I'm less worried about me being sick, and I'm more worried about like my cellmate getting sick, and him feeling like the depth of that responsibility and feeling guilty about it and feeling like he would be responsible for that guy dying is just so inappropriate, I guess I don't, I don't even really have words for it, it just wrong to put that on him, when he has no control over it. And for him to be the one person who cares about that situation, apparently, in that whole jail, right? Or like him and the other inmate, the other prisoners just really reveals a lot about the way that we treat other human beings within that system. But so he ended up getting out. But that's sort of a digression. But yeah, I mean, there's just one thing that I hear a lot from other lawyers is like, we just don't feel like lawyers anymore, right? All we're doing is like,

I don't know managing dates, right? Like, even now, you're not getting a jury trial, you're just not going to do it, that's not going to happen unless you like have something high profile. Guys who have been in this whole time, who have who had jury trials get like, didn't get to a jury trial before was already scheduled for trial. Two years later, they're still sitting in jail waiting for it, right. And so, you know, the pressure to just take a fucking plea is skyrocketed. The pressure to like, waive your jury trial, right into a bench trial, very high, which, you know, is an option, but it's not ideal. And certainly, we've had both people both in and out who have said, Look, we're just gonna either I'm just going to take a plea, I have to be done with this. Well, let's go to a bench trial, because I have to be done with this. And so essentially, it's a pressure to waive your rights away, right. Like, those are core parts of the Constitution that we’re just giving up on. And I think it's definitely made it easier for judges to, you know, do things with waived appearances, which I don't think is necessarily great. Another positive that came out of it, though, is like with the courthouses being closed, you know, there, there are people I've had open for like a year and a half, two years that I've never spoken to no one's ever spoken to. And in the normal world, they would have warrants out, and they would have been arrested again, on those warrants. But like, because no one's coming to court. You know, we're just sort of bumping along. It puts a big strain on the public defenders and the DAs. And the courts, because we have, you know, all these cases open, I have all these people on my docket that every month I'm trying to contact. And it's not happening, but like, I can't really say that I want them to have warrants. We're now in a system where it's like, Have you spoken to your client? Yes. Then they'll waive the appearance. And if not, they default them, which puts another question of like, attorney client confidentiality and privilege, right? Like, I shouldn't be having to tell you whether or not I've spoken to my client that's between him and me, or her. And I feel like that's sort of the world that we're in, right. And so even if we say if they say, oh, have you spoken to your client? And the answer is no. And I say, Judge, I have nothing to say, they know what that means. Right? Well, it's like, it's not really. So again, it's another way that it's thrown into question, like our relationship with our clients and our role in the whole court system. Yeah, yeah. The other I mean, the fact that we were, you know, there's all like the plexiglass up and we can't have people in court and it's also dangerous and blah, blah, blah. And yet we were continuously expected and again, both externally and internally expected to go to the jails and to sit I mean, I can't tell you the number of times that I've sat direct clean next to a client who like can't can't wear a mask because whatever mental illness you know. One who was like turned away because at the door because he tested positive for COVID I, we went outside and did his play from there because it just had to be done right.

34:23 NA

Kind of face to face with someone who had just tested positive?

34: 27 AS

Yeah, yeah, like and over and over again. It's just like what we we did one of the other public defenders in our county got COVID. He believed from a client and passed away and like wrote a really sort of scathing, but also moving letter saying like, look like this is a position that you've put us in that and this guy was like, you know, he was he really really cared about his clients, right? Like he would go he was one of the guys who would go on a bailed if one of his clients is getting bailed out of Chicopee which is an hour and a half to two hours from here, it's the only female jail or women's prison, rather, he would go out there and like, pick up his client, but also pick up, like would rent a car or rent a van, pick up his client pick up whoever else was getting bailed out who needed a ride, and would then just like drive them all over Massachusetts, right? And like, just would be here. He was like a gun guy, right. So he would do like these tests, when they had these dangerous hearings, he like, do these test firings or like he once bought, someone was charged with a knife that was supposedly illegal. So he bought the same one online and like brought it into court, which I just think is phenomenal. Um, but he I mean, he's a huge, huge loss to our community, to his clients. And it really is because like, courts want it to be saying that they're doing work, but we're the ones who had to do the work for them. You know, we're the only ones liaison – liaising with the people involved, all the ones was put on us to, you know, you have to get, oh, we're gonna do a plea by zoom. So you have to go there, and you have to file it two days ahead of time, and you have to get the DA on board. And you have to do this. And you have to do that. Right? And like, I don't know how it is, in other counties, we were never a county that, like you don't talk to the DA in between court dates and District Court, it just doesn't happen. Like you get there that day, and like you deal with it, then. They, for a long time, just didn't have files at home, no one knew who was working. They didn't set up their like remote system for a very, very long time, or like they only have this week's cases at home that they could access. And like, Okay, I need to find time to go to the jail, to talk with you about this case, go to the jail, talk to my client, maybe come back to you with questions, go back to the jail again, get it signed, and still getting into the clerk's office two days ahead of time. And you only have one week of files, like…where do you think I can spend all day on one case, right, like I have a ton of clients who all need equal attention. And just like it's not humanly possible, it's not physically possible. Some of the jails did start sending up like zoom calls that we could do with our clients. But like that also was not the same, right? Like you just don't get the same connection. And where honesty is so important, and like there, and again, trust is so important, like you really need that. Looking in the face communication is something that we still sort of battled with, right, because like, even, I mean, last Monday, I went out to see a client and Chicopee, which again, is like an hour and a half, two hours away. And I got there to find out that she had COVID. And so I sat in my car and zoomed with her from there. So like, both ways for the day, and we didn't really get to discuss everything, because part of the issue is I have no idea what the CO is right? Like, but part of the and I can't really hear because they put her in like this weird echoey room, she can't hear me, she's sick, which is another issue. Um, everything is just tremendously stressful, and more terrible. And our clients are incredibly stressed out, right, even in or out. Just so much more worried about it. I mean, I think everyone just a little more worried about like the world in general, once. But it doesn't, you know, and it does always just really just come. And I think and I know for myself, and I think for other people, like, one of the things that you really have to have in this job is like a ton of patience. And like, that's really something that I prided myself on. And like, why I got into this job, because I knew I could handle that. And I just find find it like draining away, right? Because like when every single client is yelling at you, or like, is either yelling at you or is suicidal. And like, that's all that you do all day long. It's exhausting, is it really is just exhausting. And like, and I get it and I understand it. But like, I mean, I don't know what to do, like, you know, we've always sort of plays some role of therapist, some more than others and myself definitely more than others. But you know, you can't get anyone into therapy. You can't get anyone into a program, which is the other thing right, like drug beds, psychiatry, psychiatric beds, which are always in high demand before now, impossible to find when people are at like partial capacity. It Yeah…[drops off / silence]

39:41 NA

So then with your role as a public defender, did you kind of feel it moving from something empowering to helping black and brown people to kind of just exhausting, like, your entire feeling for the role changed?

39:54 AS

Yeah, so it's interesting, because I was so I left and came back, right so there's still something about it that like, Yeah, you really love and like, I think. But yeah, I mean, I don't know, I guess I, I definitely don't feel like I'm making as big an impact as I was. And part of that is just like, it's impossible to get any, anything substantive heard, there's such a backlog of cases and like to actually do something is impossible. And then like, you know, every few weeks or whatever, like Omicron picks back up, and suddenly you're back in this desperation to just like try to get people to jail, because that's really where we weren't, you know, for the first four to five months, like, that's all that we were doing was just desperately trying to get everybody out of jail. And, you know, for like, a couple weeks, it was working, we had, you know, the, there was a decision from our, from our, from the state Supreme Court, saying, you know, we should really be trying to let people out and this and that, and like if it's not a serious crime, and so we were able to use that to like, go in and argue, people who even people who had already been held before COVID. And so, you know, there was some success with that. And like, to the DA’s credit, there were like, two or three days that they had supervisors where they had working, we're just agreeing to, like, 90% of the cases. And I should, I should also say that I work specifically in the District Court. So the way that we have is like anything that you, your maximum exposure is two and a half years in a jail goes to district court. If it's anything above that, you get indicted, you go to Superior Court. Okay. And so I'm talking very much about District Court, which is largely, you know, domestics drugs, unarmed robbery, car stuff. Yeah. So like, you know, in the span of things not as serious, although I, I very much. I say on a regular basis, like, I only want to do District Court work, because I do think that it gets undervalued. And it is incredibly important to the people who are going through it, right, like you can destroy your life with a 30 day jail sentence just as easily, as with a five to six years. And I think that we, it's easy to lose sight of that when you're like, you're sort of looking at life felonies versus 10 days, but it's, you know, it doesn't make a difference to the person who has to go to jail, who's lost their job, lost their family, lost their kids, whatever it might be, or these days, who goes to jail gets COVID and dies.

I just had a client who was co-defendant who was her husband of 60. Of not sixty years of 30 years, but was he was like 60 years old. They both got arrested on something that's bullshit. Both got held on bail, which neither of them should have been because they have no record, either one. And so you know, bail is supposed to only be about Will you come back to court? And if you have no nothing showing that you won't, there's no reason you should be having a bail. But that happened. Um, and so they bailed my client out first, cuz she's the woman. So like, that's the way that it goes. Right. And they're both in their 60s. He's in jail for eight days gets COVID During Omicron and died. Like a month later. Yeah. And then her daughter died the same day.

[Both interviewer and Interviewer share a moment of silence and disbelief]

43:11 AS

And so it's just like. yeah, it's just I mean, like, it's very real, that people are really, really are dying. And the jail is clearly still not doing a good job. Right. Like there's housing people with other people who are sick. And they know it. Yeah, I mean, and so now things are beginning to pick up a little bit more. You know, like, jurors, jurors just came back at about a month ago. Motions and stuff have been happening for a while we were doing, you know, I've done it, I did a couple motions to suppress over zoom, which, you know, I, I didn't win any of them. And so I like to think that that was because of zoom. [Sentence removed as per AS request]

So I did, I'm going to back up to I did a couple of motions by zoom, which didn't go well. There is very much a part of me that believes that it would have been different if we had been able to be in the room, cross the officer face to face, make the arguments face to face, you know, read body language is a huge it's an A jury instruction, that body language is a big part of assessing credibility. And you lose all that by assume and so. So yeah, I mean, we were but like, if it's dispositive, and your clients would have stuck, you know, you do what you have to do. So then essentially being forced to waive rights. And so, you know, in the beginning, it was when no one was set up to work from home. You know, we were doing everything from our own laptops and computers and all that. Cell phones. I mean, I'm sure that you've seen that I'm not a cat video.

45:37 NA

Yes.

45:38 AS

That's so real. Like, I can't even like the number of things that I've seen happen on Zoom is just really concerning, frankly, even like now, right? Like, we still are doing sort of a hybrid for some things. You know, you don't need to see your colleagues going to the bathroom, or like, like, I just don't need any of this. Or, or like, I also don't need my, the judges being able to see into my clients houses and making additional judgments. And even worse when they start commenting on it. Because like, You have no right, you know nothing about them. Like you don't need to tell them, Oh, well, you need to have, you know, clean space to be doing this for a quiet space. Like maybe they just don't have one. So when you need to find a quiet space in your own home is impossible for some people, and it's offensive to then be taken to task. And embarrassing, right to be embarrassed about it on a zoom full of who knows how many people

46:28 NA

Because they’re already aware of it, their space so then put that on the record and discuss it.

46:40 AS

Exactly right. And it's like bad enough when they do it to people coming in and like commenting on their clothes or whatever. Um, but like it just something, there's something worse about it too. Like for it to be in your home, right. Like when you can't escape. It's really invasive. And I think the same thing for us as attorneys, right? We're like, I, I'll speak for myself, like, but I think a lot of attorneys feel the same way. Like, I take it very hard and very personal. Right. So when I'm doing arraignments. You know, I'm really, I really think that a large. Someone told me once when I was in law school, like, you know, “When the facts are good, you argue the facts when the facts are not good, You argue yourself.” Right? So like, if I if my client is someone that I think is going to like present well, then it all goes on him. If it's not that I tried to shift the attention onto myself. And so in a lot of ways, like we get in, you know, I take it all very personally. And I really do believe in the arguments that I'm making, I believe in my clients, and then their goodness and their wholesomeness. And like, if they tell me they're going to show back up to court, like, I truly, truly believe that. And it's really hard with that plus, like being like an A type personality, where I feel like I can control things. It's always very hard when, again, just an arraignment, for example, when I lose an arraignment and like, I really don't think someone should go to be held on any bail. And suddenly they're being held on bail, going to jail. And again, going to jail where they might contract COVID and die. And like, I always feel like okay, what if I had argued this? What if I had argued that maybe I should have said this? Maybe I should have said that? And that's saying that you already always do and like, there are certain judges that you do it more with and who make it more personal towards you, right? Because either because they'll ask you a bunch of questions, even though we both know that they're going to hold them and they're just looking for you to, like, give one wrong answer that they can like, check off their list. Or just to like fuck with you. And then they're also judges who like, there's one judge in particular that we're in front of a lot who just emotes so much. [pause] I don't know, disdain, feelings, like, I don't know. Exactly. Um, and I get out of a day with him on a normal day. And I just feel so emotionally worn down, right? Because like, everyone's been lectured and about lectured about their personal lives and the choices that they've made. And you're sort of being lectured with them. Because like, you're trying to be a barrier to that as much as you can write both to protect your client. And then like, having to explain to your client afterwards, like, you know, you can't take it to heart like your life is your life. And then to have so to have those same interactions, like in your home space, is just really,..it's a lot tougher. It's just a lot tougher to extract from.

49:39 NA

like to distract from your work life balance?

49:40 AS

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And just like to, like is it like, it's already so hard when you're you come back to the office and you feel like, I feel like I just got yelled at all day for like being a horrible person because I just like the emotion in the room. I said, I said this once after like [unintelligible]...  I've come home so I pre pandemic with them. Like, I did not drink at all, and like, I had come out of arraignment days with him sometimes being like, I gotta quit alcohol like, I don't know, I feel like because like, that was like the lecture that kept I got a bunch of oh you wise whatever it was that day and that's the lecture that kept happening. And I came home like feeling so beat down about it that even though like I never literally never drank, I felt like I needed like to go to an AA meeting or something. Right. So, um, so yeah, just like the intensity of it in the house is like really, really hard.

It just, it's all just so bad. Like, I don't, I don't know, which is also bad. And now that we're back in court, like no one really has figured out how to interact with one another. It's really unclear still, who gets brought in from the jail and who doesn't. And on any given day, and the jail sort of always did this, but I feel like now they have COVID as an excuse, right? Where they're just like, oh, no, like, we're not gonna come in today. We're like, we're late, or like, Oh, we didn't get the message. And then everyone just sort of was like, Well, you know, COVID

Which again, I get, but I mean, he's in jail. Like, I don't know what to tell you that you have to let him out. Like, we can't keep doing the “Oh COVID”. Yeah. If you're gonna hold them, if you want to let them out and do “Oh, COVID”. Like, I'll do that with you all day long. Yeah, you know, that has its own issues. But like, I will do that with you. For years, which we have been doing right. But you can't just hold you just can't have him sitting there in jail. With nuts, just with nothing in our jail here is particularly one disgusting, too. Like, there's no pro, there was no pretrial programming, there's not like there's really nothing to do, right, you just sit around it is really,

I was there the other day. And I hadn't been to like this part of the jail in a long time. And I just had this moment of like, Why did I ever come in here without a mask? Like this is gross? I cannot believe so gross? Um, yeah. What else do you want to know?

52:05 NA

Um, I think just as everything else is kind of only like up enough, quote, unquote, depending on what community you're part of, and what's going on in your personal life. Have you felt? Have you felt a positive shift in the incarcerated community in your client community? Or do you feel like that's very much so lagging and might get lost even further as the general public gets better?

52:26 AS

Yeah, I mean, so I think I've mentioned a couple clients, like Justin, who've been very sick very recently passed away very recently. Um, and so I don't know. So when you say like, a positive shift, there's like, sort of two parts of that, right. One is like, health wise. And the other is emotionally, and so I don't know. I mean, health wise, potentially, I guess, like, since Omicron, sort of died down. I haven't really had anyone ill, although I did have a guy who was in a quarantine block, and then they'd sent him out to see me anyway, without telling me, which I cool, I guess, [sarcasm] um, and they stopped wearing masks at the jail. So there's that. But health wise, I get, I guess it's sort of like tracking the rest of the population. You know, obviously, our clients were always at higher risk, and like, we're more likely to be ill. I think there's definitely a shift towards people feeling like, Oh, they're just using that as an excuse, they don't really have COVID. Right. And I think that we're very soon going to start seeing a demand for proof, which, I mean, is ridiculous, like, what exactly are we doing, like, pick a rapid test and photo it to me, I guess that's where we're gonna be again. Um, which is, so there's that as far as like,

I think, like many places people have just sort of gotten used to it. And that, that includes in the client pub in our client population, right? Like, this is just part of how things go now. Um, but I think like, you know, the effects of the isolation and the effects of, of COVID, in general, are just sort of lingering with everybody. And again, we have so many people whose cases are just open for so long. And the courts aren't going to get through this backlog for it's gonna be a long, long time. I think, you know, sort of because I left and came back one thing that really, and I noticed this before I left but like, everyone's just a little bit more mentally ill right and like, it's almost when we do arguments where it's almost like every single person, depression, anxiety, every single person and that's always been true, to the point where like, we don't even necessarily mention it in court unless like I can really describe what that means. I think that it just sort of gets skimmed over by the judges in their brains at this point.

But now it's like it just so much worse, right? Like I like more I have multiple clients who are, who I'm legitimately concerned are just not going to make it. Like they're going to harm themselves before our next court date. And there's very little I can do with that, right. And like, you know, the sort of triggers that you see of like, being unable to stop crying, just like leaking tears, right? I'm having panic attacks in front of me, which is not again, not uncommon, but usually, like a trial data or an arraignment, not just for like, just because we're chatting. The like, you know, when somebody asks you like, oh, how you doing? Like the odd, you just say, like, yeah, okay, like you're actually doing. But I think when people are not able to even say that, that's sort of like a, a, a note for me. And so I just I like, they're, they're not doing well, like, I don't know, it just, it's not, it's not good. It's really, really not good. And it's impossible to get anybody help. Right. And that's the other thing like therapy backlogs are so far, even if you had a therapist before getting back in to see someone is, you know, six, seven months. The isolations really getting to people, we certainly... The other thing is like, you know, for about, you know, a few weeks when they said, Oh, we're gonna start arresting people, and we're gonna let more people out of jail like that lasted like maybe a month or two or three. And now we're just sort of like, we've been back to business as usual, from that perspective, without actually getting back to business as usual. And it, I think it takes a toll on the community, I think it takes a toll certainly on us takes a toll on our clients, which again, just, you know, how many times can you be told, your case isn't going anywhere, like, we're just getting a date, we're just getting a date. And that stress for a lot of people always is like, that starts with just not knowing what's going to happen is really what weighs on them about court in general. And it just been prolonged for so, so long, not to mention that people who can't get jobs because of it and can't, you know, whatever, get housing because of it, or

whatever else it is want to move out of state want to, you know, go see whatever it is, or just unable to do it, like lives are put on hold. Because I mean, because of COVID In general, we know but I think there's this additional stress when you have this case lingering over you. And again, like there's just nothing, there's just nothing I can do about it. And that's a really terrible feeling. And like, to a certain extent, that's always the case in public defense, right? Like, you're the person with the least power in the courtroom besides your client. And but at least like we could make arguments and like write things and but it just like every, like you said in the beginning, like I was writing a lot of motions just because I want to feel like I was doing something. Um, but like, very quickly those were getting, like smacked down by the Supreme Judicial Court. And then like, at that point, like, what are you doing? Like, there's no, I can't think of any more creative arguments at this point, right? And then, you know, you're kind of sitting there…

58:37 NA

It’s kinda like whittling down your own mental health for no reason cause It's not going anywhere.

58:48 AS

Right. Right. Exactly. And like, again, like we're used to losing, we're used to like doing, like, I read a lot of motions that don't go anywhere. But I guess the stakes just feel that much higher. And I think it really has also added to the divide. Like I am much, we our county has always been sort of a relatively friendly, friendly one, right? Like, we're, you know, obviously, when we're in front of the judge, we're doing something like we know, are you to the best of our ability, and we'll get you know, passionate about it and all that but like, off the record, like we're not hostile towards the DAs for the most part. What do you think and you know, every county is a little bit different, but I think works in our favor, because again, like if I need to use my own familiarity with you to get my client a better deal, like I have no problem doing that. And it allows us to sort of work through other issues and for them to you know, take my word on things when, my client can't get me confirmation of it. So I think there's a lot of benefits to it, but I feel way more bitter towards all of them. You know, they didn't, not the least because like they didn't have to be going to the jails and they don't have to be unlike dealing directly with clients or in their cases even the victim because they have like their victim liaison or whatever it is. And so like they, you know, they talk about, oh, “we have so many cases we’re so stressed”, whatever. And I'm like, I you don't, I don't care, like you don't have to. And I've always felt that way a little bit. But I feel like the conversations happened less. is like, I just feel like there's a lack of a increase lack of understanding of like, what we actually are dealing with, with clients and like the struggles to get, to get discovery to get cases moving, have embittered me. And just like feeling like the lack of humanity, right? Like, we always sort of knew it, but I always sort of believed like, oh, we can do better. And again, to be fair, I think, you know, at some point, there was a big switch to like, they're dismissing a ton of driving cases have done a ton of [unintelligible] cases, they started dismissing, like, if my client can bring any sort of proof of treatment, for drug cases, they'll get rid of them, which is all a very positive change that I hope keeps up. But again, like my lack of, I just, I'm not as patient as he used to be. And that includes with every part of the system.

1:01:15 NA

 Yeah.

1:01:15 AS

I don't, I'm just like, sad. I think we all like I look around my office and like, everyone is just sad. When I was away, like I was, you know, I still in communication with a lot of people. And it just was very, it's very concerning, like to listen to your colleagues and being like I am. I'm really worried about you. And like, there's nothing I can do.

1:01:40 NA

Yeah.

1:01:43 AS

Yeah, I think it's, I think we're on the uptick, though, like people sound better, right? Like, in general like that. There's no way I can, like, quantify that, but it just, it feels like we're getting somewhere like people are now instead of just sad. I feel like we're angry again, which is like a good place to be.

1:01:59 NA

A good motivator to be had.

1:02:00 AS

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's been crazy.

1:02:07 NA

Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you've found a way to get through it all, and that you came back.

1:02:10 AS

Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm very glad to be back in public defense, I definitely still feel like even with everything else, I feel like I'm doing more here. Sort of on the daily basis, even if it is just spending some time with a client and like listening to them, you know, deal with their struggles are like doing my best to sort of calm some fears and like, having the same conversation 20 times because like, that's what they need to do. Yeah.

1:02:39 NA

Yeah.

1:02:42 AS

What else should we talk about?

1:02:47 NA

Um, well, if there's anything else you'd like to share, before we wrap up, that's just up to you. The floor is yours. Or we can put a pin in it here. But yeah.

1:03:04 AS

yeah, I mean, I guess the one last thing I will add, which, like, maybe I shouldn't, but I will, um, is actually two things. So one is that and part of this whole thing of like, feeling embittered towards, like the system a lot more is like, there's been a lot of like, I feel like there's a lot of like, congratulating of each other of like, oh, like, look how good we're doing. We got the zooms up, and we did this and that, and like, it just all feels like we should still be trying to do better. And again, also feels like a lot of the onus is put on us, the person who has to talk to the to the defendant. And a lot of the negativity also like, we're the ones causing problems, because we're always the ones saying, like, No, you have to get my client into court, or like, you have to do this thing. Even when, like, nobody wants to do it. It's like disrupting the whole, slows down the whole day and disrupts everyone and like, you know, yet yeah, do I want the court officers to have to also be dealing directly with people who potentially sick like, no, but like, I have to ask for it. Yeah. And so at the end of the day, it all comes to like, it, you know, like, part of what we have always done is like, disrupt the system, but like, in a very different way.

Yeah. And so, and then the other thing is, like, you know, obviously, the increase in awareness of racism in the system, and all of that has also been, particularly as an attorney of color, I think, has been particularly sort of burdensome. I'm not sure that I can completely tie in how those two feelings come together, but they do and it's something about like, Like this similar feeling that like now that we're sort of getting to the end of COVID, Derek Chauvin was convicted, the momentum towards Black Lives Matters had sort of petered quite a bit. Um, there's sort of this feeling of everyone's to be like, well, we're tired of this and like, we don't want to be fighting about it anymore. And yet, we still have to be the ones fighting about it is just really exhausting. And it's also really tough. It's tough to always have to be so vulnerable, right, and to always have to be the one to put yourself out there and be like the lightning rod. And like, I get that that's what being a public defender is, generally, but there's this sort of added layer of it when you're talking about, you know, people's lives and health, and whether that's because of, oh, I want to bring this person in who might potentially be sick. Or it's because, you know, you're saying, well, like, you guys have to recognize that this was like a race issue. And in both those ways, like, it's something that people don't want to talk about, because like, I think, I think it's similar, like they feel so people feel sort of helpless in both situations, or it's like, just a really hard thing to deal with. And we are the ones who have to keep bringing it up and keep bringing it up and keep bringing it up to a point where it becomes like, it starts to sort of become personal, right. And like, I feel like there's an aversion to me or us as a unit, because they're like, oh, like, here's a person who's gonna cause a problem again. And it's not good for our clients either, which is always sort of, in addition to the personal part of it is always difficult to hit the balance of like, how am I not going to harm my client while making sure that things I get done instead have to get done instead? So yeah, I think that's it.

1:07:10 NA

Well, I hope that the anger continues to be a great motivator for you, but that you also take time for self care, and then just take that time that you need to kind of push forward and just understand the great work that you're doing. And I'm really thankful that you took the time to talk to me today.

1:07:18 AS

No, thank you very much. Are you doing a lot of these interviews?

1:07:26 NA

This is my first one.

1:07:27 AS

Oh, good. Yeah. [Talked over each other] Sorry. You have another one in a couple of weeks.

1:07:29 NA

Yeah.

1:07:30 AS

So how did you get involved in it?

1:07:30 NA

I just got involved in it through we have like pro bono work that we do at UCLA. And we have to do like a certain amount of hours. But I just got really interested in that because my grandfather passed due to COVID. And so anything related to COVID, related to COVID experiences I just really feel passionate about learning more about so I think that yeah, that's right.

1:07:54 AS

I'm sorry, I'm sorry for your loss.

1:07:54 NA

Thank you. Thank you.

1:07:59 AS

Um, what are you hoping to do after law school?

1:08:00 NA

I'm hoping to become a public defender.

1:08:02 AS

It's a great job. It really, really is. It's the best job that you can have. We make so much more of an impact in people's daily lives. Like I said, I just came back from what was impact litigation, civil rights litigation, you get to be in court so much more, which is awesome. You…in normal times, you get to really make an impact in your clients. And the one thing I really have always felt here is like I get to make more creative and passionate arguments on a, like on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Whereas in other places, you just like don't get to do the same thing with the same sort of volume. And so you can change lives even when we feel like everything's terrible…..