EO 00:00:02

Okay, got it. Okay, so I, my name is Eireann, I'm a 2L at UCLA. I've been involved in the COVID Behind Bars project in a few different capacities. And right now, I'm working with their oral history team, which seeks to collect stories about, from, people that practice law with people incarcerated, or threat, or in, or the chance to be incarcerated. The idea being everyone was kind of in the dark about how to handle this, so God forbid this ever happens again, or this probably will continue for a couple more years, we kind of have a resource for people that practice law a little bit more knowledgeably.

Um, and before I ask you to introduce yourself, I have to read this little chunk of explanation of the project: So I want to start by explaining how we plan to use the conversation we're about to have, our conversation is not legally privileged, and we will not keep what you say confidential. We plan to make transcripts and recordings of our interviews available for use by future researchers and the general public. And portions may be posted online or discussed in posts on our website or other published writing. I want our conversation to flow freely. And I realized that you may discuss a sensitive topic or mentioned a piece of information that you later realize you would like withheld. If you request it now, at the end of the interview, or later on after further reflection, we're happy for you to review the transcript of our conversation before it is made public and to redact any portions you deem necessary from the transcript and recording. The author. Basically, if you think if you like, say something and just go oops, I'll note it or right after if you think of something or in like, a few weeks, and then I don't know how quick our turnaround time is but eventually you'll get a transcript. And then you can read it and be like, shoot, I shouldn’t have said that.

RLB 00:01:54

That sounds great. Thanks. I’ve worked with a lot of reporters.

EO 00:01:58

Yeah, yeah, I Yeah, we just don't want anyone to, I don't know, not get in trouble. But just yeah, make a mistake or whatever. So yeah, I introduced myself, would you like to introduce yourself briefly for the project?

RLB 00:02:10

Sure. My name is Rosa Lee or Rosie Bichell. I am currently a staff attorney at Disability Rights Advocates based out of Berkeley, California. At the beginning of the pandemic, I was a legal fellow, a Justice Catalyst fellow. But I have since become a staff attorney. I don't know if that's really important to say. But there you go.

EO 00:02:32

That was actually my next question, which was, were you in this position when the pandemic started? So you said you were a fellow at Disability Rights [Advocates]?

RLB 00:02:40

Disability Rights Advocates

EO 00:02:41

Disability Rights Advocates, and in the pandemic, you were made a staff attorney?

RLB 00:02:45

Yeah. So what was it, September of this past year? In 2020? Yeah, September 2021 I became a staff attorney.

EO 00:02:44

Wow, what a first year.

RLB 00:02:46

It was a two year fellowship. So you know, a little bit of time before the pandemic, but most of my time since law school has been pandemic world, which is kind of wacky, because it's like, oh, this is totally normal. And everyone's like, No, it's not normal.

EO 00:03:12

Maybe that made you actually a little bit more able to like, respond and not kind of miss, I don't know...

RLB 00:03:21

Yeah, it also means that I'm, like, really used to court being on Zoom and not having to, like, put on business pants and stuff, but, you know

EO 00:03:28

Um, so yeah, do you-- I know, you just said you worked for about, like you said half a year before the pandemic started as a, as a fellow. So how did your work change like, immediately when the pandemic hit and then more long term?

RLB 00:03:47

Sure. So I mean, I guess we're, just some more background about the work that I do at DRA, because I feel like that's probably important. So my organization Disability Rights Advocates, DRA, is a kind of impact systemic and class action litigation organization. And as the name would suggest, all of our work deals with advancing and protecting, vindicating the rights of people with disabilities. And a lot of times that ends up intersecting with other areas of the law. So hence why we're talking right now in this COVID Behind Bars Oral History conversation. But, uh, so let's see, my fellowship project was oriented towards immigration detention. So that's the, the bulk of my experience in terms of I mean, I have been involved in some, like, settlement monitoring, with cases in jails and prisons, but most of my like, really active work has been in the context of immigration detention. And so I started off uh, basically, I'm one of a large team of people who has worked on the case Fraihat v. ICE which, at the beginning, er, in August of 2019, we filed it. Admittedly, that was actually like a month before I started my fellowship. So I was not actually there when it was filed. But, um, but the, the, in a nutshell, that case is aimed at challenging systemic conditions in immigration detention and mainly thinking about violations of constitutional law. And so Fifth Amendment conditions of confinement issues and, and violations of federal disability law in terms of broad scale medical neglect, neglect of mental health needs and failure to identify and accommodate the needs of people with disabilities and immigration detention. And that's a, it's a nation, it's a system wide case so it's across all ICE detention centers, I guess, I don't know if it's important to say, but little caveat there is that it's only for adult detention centers, and only for facilities that house people for more than 72 hours, but whatever, that's just kind of a detail there. Um, so anyway, that case, it probably goes without saying that that case really kind of ballooned in the pandemic. And so very quickly, basically, as soon as, like, we started hearing about COVID, I mean, we were already all of our client, all of our, like named plaintiffs and clients in that case, were already either had some kind of disability or were medically vulnerable to begin with. And so as soon as we heard kind of whisperings about COVID-19, it became clear that we were gonna have to do something about that, especially because very early on, it was obvious that ICE was doing very little, if not nothing to respond to the pandemic, and I don't need to tell you, but in a congregate setting, we know that these kinds of infectious diseases are particularly horrid. Again, that's probably the reason why you're, we're having this conversation. So anyway, I'm giving you a really longwinded response to that question. But basically, like, this case, that was gonna take, get, it was gonna go really slowly, that was already like pretty all consuming, but was going to be like a really gradual thing that we were going to like, be able to take a lot of time to kind of work through, all of a sudden, this, like, we ended up filing a request for a preliminary injunction requiring ICE to respond to the, to the pandemic, and part of that included this liberatory goal of having ICE review folks for release. So those, for those who had risk factors for complications, or severe infections with COVID-19. Um, so I was like, I mean, I was still pretty fresh. I was only like, seven months into my fellowship, something like that. So like, I don't know, law school is great, but like, you really learn so much once you're actually practicing. And so it was like, I was still in the phase where I'm like, I don't know what like, I know, like, theoretically, what the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure might say. But like, I don't know what that means in terms of like, deadlines for filing things. And I don't know what that means in terms of like, I don't know, like, what you put in a reply brief, that sort of thing. And so like, personally, all of a sudden, it was like this, like, hyper speed learning process. But then like, practically it was this, like, we had to, this case that it's that that folks that spent years building, all of a sudden, we had this like sub case piece of it, that like we had to put together in two weeks, basically. And I'm, I mean, I'm really proud, like I at that point was like, again, I'm like, kind of a legal grub. So like, I was doing what I could, but it wasn't like, I was like, the big, I don't know, thinker in this stuff. I was just kind of like taking assignments. And so and at that time, also, because I was like, still quite fresh. I was like, Oh, this is like probably a normal thing that people do. But like, with reflection, it's like, no, that was a massive undertaking to like, get this, like, novel sort of preliminary injunction system-wide, across, like 1000s of people and hundreds of or at least 150-ish facilities like to get this PI [preliminary injunction] on file. And while that was happening, I mean, like, I'm talking to my clients in detention, who, like, I only really get to talk to you on the phone because of like facilities getting shut down and limiting visits, like I'm talking to them on the phone. So like, we're doing this like really heavy logistical lift. And then there's also this, like, my clients are talking about how they're like maybe symptomatic or they're like seeing people around them getting sick. And it's just there was, it was this like, really, um, again, probably not something new that you're hearing because of having other conversations like these, but like, for me as a relatively young attorney, it was like, a fresh attorney it was like, this like really foundationally shifting moment of like, like, all of a sudden we have to do all of this stuff on all of these deadlines, and we're doing like, like my clients’ lives are really at stake all of a sudden in a way that like I, I never would have anticipated ahead of time. So all that to say, I'm, I'm really giving you a longwinded answer, but like, my entire job, like shifted, I mean, a lot of like, most of my job shifted in that, like, all of a sudden, everything was dedicated to like this system-wide COVID response. Um, and, and I'm kind of exaggerating, I mean, it wasn't everything, like I still had some other cases I was working on and have continued to work on but like, that was really like, a major shift from like, kind of slowly plodding through to like, emergency response. Um, and I don't know if you need me to, like you want me to give you like, more information about how that case ended up going. But I imagine that people

00:10:44

No, I think kind of like, I’ll ask questions that I thought of as they came up, um, the first being the case you said it was called Fraihat. How do you pronounce it?

00:10:55

Fraihat v. ICE

EO 00:10:57

Okay. Um, and then what you were asking for in that preliminary injunction about, it seems kind of the equivalent of like, compassionate release that California prisons have. Was that a thing in ICE detention centers before COVID? Like, were you basing it off a preexisting structure? Or was it totally new?

RLB 00:11:16

So there's kind of a complicated response to that question. One being, like we couldn't outright ask for release, because under the INA and various immigration laws, like a federal judge actually doesn't have discretion to order release except in like, honestly, maybe, like, even habeas sometimes is questionable. But I mean, it's more accepted that like, under I mean, that habeas I mean, a federal judge can order release under the habeas process. But, um, but in our situation, like, we actually couldn't ask the judge to order that folks be released. Well, we can ask that he order, was that, ICE consider, like, review people for release. So like, this seems like a nuance difference, but it's actually like an it's kind of there's like, a lot in there. And that, like, um, you could order a process for review, but you couldn't actually order that people be released. And so, I mean, ultimately, I mean, with a lot of fighting, a lot of subsequent motions, and I mean, a lot of it was, it was, it was very much not easy. But ultimately, there was I mean, ICE did establish this process for, to review people for release. And like, by our calculations, like more than 20,000 people were released from immigration detention. But that has cons. I mean, it is kind of been a constant fight with ICE in terms of like, you can't tell us to release people. And we're like, we're not telling you to release people. We're telling you to think about releasing them. So yeah, kind of nuanced difference, it seems I mean, from the outside, it probably seems like that like, not a very significant difference. But like, that is something that has kind of reared its head a lot.

EO 00:13:05

Yeah, no, no, that makes total sense. So then does ICE have the like, discretion to be like, well, you asked, and we considered it and we say no.

RLB 00:13:15

Yeah. So yeah. So ultimately, I mean, just as a point of clarification, so like under, and I'm giving you like a major oversimplification, like take this with a grain of salt, but, like, under the, under federal immigration law, it's really like ICE and like an immigration judge who have the discretion or the authority to actually release someone. So under this process, because it's ICE who was detaining these folks, anyway, it was ICE who's going to be reviewing them, not immigration judges, also, because immigration courts are like really slow to process and have their own, whole other set of issues on their own. But anyway, so um, short answer, yes, there have been and were a lot of instances, especially at the beginning, where ICE was like, we reviewed this person, like, we will say, just like point blank that their public safety threat without really giving any kind of explanation for why that is. So. And that's one of the reasons why we ended up having to go back to court several times, is because it was a sort of thing where it was like, we had to go back to the federal judge and say, like you ordered that you ordered that they do these kinds of reviews, they're not really doing them, or they're not doing them in the in a meaningful way that you wanted them to do. So like, we were granted that preliminary injunction we ended up having to like go back to court for a motion to enforce that preliminary injunction and then we ended up having to go back to court again for, to request what's called a special master, which is basically like a monitor, but in this context, you call them a special master. And, again, gross oversimplification, but it's like, it's like before something is settled or something like that, then you have a special master. But um, honestly, I'm sure there are other instances, I'm just, I should probably know, actually the, all of the conditions under which a special master was granted, but like I'm blanking right now. But anyway, um, so we have to go back to court, like several times throughout, let's see, the. we went for the motion to enforce in the summer after the pandemic. That was, within a few months, it was like pretty clear that ICE wasn't really doing what they were supposed to do under the P.I. Also, just as a quick point of clarification, the preliminary injunction not only called for this review for release, but also for a set of policies for people who did remain detained to establish certain protections and protocols and policies in detention as well.

EO 00:15:52

Okay.

RLB 00:15:52

Because we, I mean, as much as like, the public health consensus, and our goal or our understanding was that like release is ultimately, the best way to prevent the spread of COVID in congregate settings, which is, we knew that there were going to be people are gonna stay detained. Um, I lost my train of thought.

EO 00:16:12

You said summer?

RLB 00:16:12

Oh, yeah. So summer, right. So the motion to enforce was in the summer. And then the next, I'm forgetting timeline, I think it was like, January. So like, several months after that, we ended up getting, filing the request for the special master. So this was like a, over a year, we had to go back to court a couple of times, I guess three times in total, when we went, anyway, yeah, we had to go back several times to like, try to enforce this preliminary injunction that had been on the books since April, we got the PI end of April. So like, basically, like within a month, and a week or so of like, everything shutting down. And then unfortunately, in, so ICE, unsurprisingly, appealed the PI, and then to the Ninth Circuit, and we had a not-great panel. And so then in October, the Ninth Circuit actually reversed the PI, one thing again, like still learning even more than two years into being a lawyer, but I'm still like learning things every day. But um, one thing that I learned in that whole process is that like, even if the Ninth Circuit has reversed the PI technically, their mandate hasn't issued. So until the Ninth Circuit mandate issues, the, all the policies of the PI and subsequent orders are still in effect. So and one way, I mean that that mandate doesn't issue until I'm, like, gonna screw up the exact deadline, but something like 45 days after the deadline to request, review en banc, has passed, don't quote me on that. It's just like, there's still some time. So like, we as a team have still been thinking about if we are going to seek further review of the Ninth Circuit order. And so that deadline has actually been, we've been able to get extension. So that deadline has been pushed out. Um, and also part of that, I mean, we have started settlement negotiations with ICE. I obviously can't say anything about how that's going because that is confidential. But anyway, there's like a lot of things in motion right now. But the Ninth Circuit reversal is still like a major disappointment.

EO 00:18:40

Yeah. That makes sense.

RLB 00:18:40

Especially since it was like, a year and a half after all of this had been in effect, and it was like, yeah, anyway, I don't need to really go into detail about why it was a disappointment. I think it's pretty obvious why.

EO 00:18:54

That makes total sense. Um, and so now the current stages, you all are kind of in like a settlement stage trying to figure it out.

RLB 00:19:02

Yeah. And we continue to, like, while we're negotiating, we're, we continue to seek extensions for the, um, the review en banc at the Ninth Circuit. In case things fall apart, and we do feel like we need to go back. There's a lot of reasons like there's a lot of risks in going for review en banc. There are also potential benefits. But anyway, so there's just kind of, we're like maintaining these sort of two track options.

EO 00:19:34

And you're still working on this case closely.

RLB 00:19:36

Oh, yeah.

EO 00:19:37

Got it. Um, the, you said that there were policies in the preliminary injunction as well as the release aspect of it where there’s policies like masks, vaccines, stuff like that.

RLB 00:19:49

Yeah. So there's an, so the PI called for ICE to come up with policies that like met certain criteria, basically, and so then ICE came up with their own policy. And then like, through subsequent orders, basically, it was like the judge holding them accountable to their own policies. So, that's another thing because it's like the, the judge has to be like, I mean, there's sort of like, separation of powers stuff or like, federal agency is like, “you federal judge can't be like, controlling all of our actions.” And he's like, “I'm not controlling your actions. I'm like, pointing you in a direction.” But anyway, it again, fascinating learning experience. But um the policies included a lot of like PPE, provision of PPE, testing upon intake testing, like quarantine procedures, and it baked into that is supposed to be like, that they update based on CDC guidance. We have had to like, I mean, yeah, sometimes that's like, not really meaningful. Or like, I don't know, CDC, the CDC has like some, like congregate setting and correction setting specific guidance, but like that hasn't, it still is like, pretty, I don't know, it does seem like the CDC, like less willing to engage with like, correctional settings, or incarcerate, like incarcerations, specifically than like, they really should be considering how central to like, I don't know. I mean, one thing I read, and one thing that would seem obvious to me is that like ICE detention, ended up being like a super spreader institution, basically. And so it's like, you really think that like, the CDC would engage a little bit more with that. But anyway, this is my own personal opinion, they haven't really and so like baking into ICE’s policies that they have to update with CDC is like meaningful in some ways, and then less so and others. But, I digress.

EO 00:21:58

Can you see that on like, when we were all looking at all those charts all the times, areas that had prisons have them specifically, and I assume the same would go for ICE detention facilities, you'd see like, a bump, either in the community or in the prison. And then within five days, it's the exact same bump, either in the community or the prison, whichever one first and it was so like, they're connected, the staff go in and out, and then they go into the community. So yeah, so I guess-

RLB 00:22:27

Bringing it in, and or taking it I mean, it's like, like, this is so obvious. Anyway, I don’t need to get too fired up about that.

EO 00: 22:39

A brief aside, I volunteered, before the oral history project, last year, we had a big policy tracking team. And so we would comb through all the policies and kind of like pick out things and because I joined the project kind of late, I was doing it retroactively. So I was starting with the most recent policies and going backwards. And it was the most like insanity-inducing things. Because like in this policy, it would say, huge outbreak, and like a week before, it would be like no vaccine mandate, and it'd be like, “what?”

Um, yeah, back to your work. You kind of touched on this about, like, ICE, but did any of like, the actors in your spheres, whether that's like ICE or judges, or administrators or anything like that, did they surprise you in a positive or negative way in how they handled COVID?

RLB 00:23:29

Um, I would say something about working in a case that, like, is across ICE detention facilities, is that, and this actually gets to our, one thing in our like, broader case, so like, not COVID specific, but like, the broader systemic case is supposed to be like, one of the main things that we plan out is ICE’s failure to like adequately monitor and oversee their detention system. And so I'm, what I'm getting at is that like, even two years in, what are we, three now, yeah, two years in, I don't know time anymore, but, but, um, like, a major issue in our case has been like just like ICE’s, inability or unwillingness to like, meaningfully track what's going on on the ground. And like we especially in a COVID situation, where like, a lot of I mean, things have, obviously be, started to open up but like, for so much of the last two years, like, there was really limited ability to go into facilities and like also, when we're talking about a systemwide case, like my team, the team that I'm working with is like pretty spread out across the country. I mean, we have like, our, we're working with SPLC and another organization called Civil Rights Education Enforcement Center, CREEC, and then like a couple of law firms, but it still is like, um, we aren't really like going into facilities because of COVID, but also because like, in the nature of our like systemwide work is that like going into specific facilities can sometimes like be indicative of what's going on across the system. But like, a lot of the times, if we bring that information to ICE, they'll be like, no, that's just happening at that one place. [Redacted] … there is such variation across the ICE detention system. So like, I mean, I can't think of any like, particularly good actor in ICE detention, I mean, like, generally, also, because personally, I think ICE detention is an illegitimate institution, just across the board. So like, I don't want to, like celebrate the like, really, meeting really basic human need. But, uh, I mean, again, I'm giving you a really longwinded response to the question that could have been a lot simpler, but like, this, basically, it's like, it's really hard to, to, to even, like, identify good actors, because, like, the monitoring and oversight is so deficient. Um, that being said, like, our federal judge, uh, I was, again, like, with my limited experience, like, I don't know if others expected this. I don't think others necessarily expected this. But like, we got a, like, the fact that we got a PI at the beginning and then won several, like enforcement orders after that, like forgetting about the Ninth Circuit, but like, that specific federal judge was, like, I thought really, really amazing. And he was like, responding, I mean, responding well to like, public health data. And the, I don't know, I just, his response was unexpectedly good, in my opinion. Um, in terms of, so we did end up getting the special master for a while. And there were some like, pros and cons of having him in place, like, which I don't really need to get into but one good thing that came from that, and again, it wasn't like, it could have been better, but something that I like, with a little bit of distance and talking with others, and like, oh, yeah, I guess that was actually good was that under the special master, we were able to get a, an order that ICE offer vaccines to everyone with COVID risk factors in detention. I mean, like, as a little aside, like, I would have liked for that to be just offering vaccines to everyone in detention, because that's like how vaccines work. But that being said, like that, they were able to, that we did get, like an order. And the way that it works with the special masters, you have like the special master writes this like report and recommendation to the federal judge, and then the federal judge decides if he and like we, as the parties get to, like, oppose or or, like, respond to that report. And then the federal judge gets to, like, order, like, either adopt the special master’s recommendations or like, do whatever anyway. Um, so like, it was involved in both the special master and the federal judge who was already quite good, but it was pretty cool to have that kind of like systemic vaccine order. I mean, limited to people with risk factors, but still, like, it did kind of push ICE to do something, and it really wasn't doing up until that point, and that they were really just like, I mean, there's immense variation across the system, which is something that has been the case in this whole I mean, with this case the whole time, but, but until that order was in place, they were really like, “Oh, no, like the Public Health Department hasn't been by, so like, what are we supposed to do?” It's like, you guys are a federal agency holding these people in custody. You can't just like, you can't just like wait for a county health department to drop by. Anyway, um, again, I'm giving you way too long of a response but the federal judge, pleasantly surprised, the Special Masters, I don't know, pleasantly surprised in some ways. The Ninth Circuit, don't like them, the judges that we had.

EO 00:29:53

Um, and then kind of to get into-- I don't know if you feel comfortable at all talking about this, but like, the personal impact it had on you. It's like, I know that, I've done an interview like this a few times, and, like, people talk a lot about how, like, the pandemic was hard on them individually, like, is not a lawyer that works with people with incarcerated people. But then they would go to work, or they would like go to their, go to work in their house. And then they talked to their clients. And it was just like, that kind of comparison was jarring. But then also, there was like similarities with clients that they never had before. So I was wondering if you feel comfortable, kind of like touching on that, like, how jarring it was? Or? I don't know…

RLB 00:30:34

Yeah, well, I did want to also talk a bit more about my clients generally. And that, like, at the very beginning, it was like, I was trying to talk to them, like every day, because it was obviously a really scary time for them. But also, I wanted to, like monitor their health in case they were experiencing any kind of symptoms or anything. And that was both anchoring, but also, I think, frightening for all of us. I mean, like, it was great to be able to, like that was, and I was, I was talking to my clients like much more frequently at the beginning of the pandemic than I really have at any other time. Um, because we don't do like direct services. And so it is like, tends to be a little bit more like, spread out when we're in communication with folks. But, but, so. Okay, I'm gonna, so I'm gonna respond to that question in a little bit. But first, I just want to, like, paint the picture of the clients and then and also, like, talk about how great they are. But, um, but uh, yeah, so that was, I think it was really good for. Okay, also, sorry, I'm like trying to collect my thoughts here. Pretty early on in the pandemic, several of my clients were actually released on humanitarian parole. That's two of them, were released on humanitarian parole, sorry, no, scratch that. They both got out on habeas. The reason that I'm like, having a hard time keeping track of this is because there were other lawyers who are handling that, that wasn't me.

EO 00:32:17

I’m gonna say also, that was like two years ago. (laughs.) So, totally fair. I don’t remember things two years ago.

RLB 00:32:23

Yeah. Like, so like, they, these two clients of mine got out, like, pretty quickly. And that was like, really amazing. I mean, they got out like, after we'd filed the PI but before we'd actually like had to hear it before like, that was actually in place, they were out. And so that was like, really amazing. And obviously, it provided a lot more flexibility in terms of like, how I was able to stay in touch with them. For the others, and, and so for this case, like I personally was in charge of five clients, so that leaves three, one who’d already been deported. So I was, I mean, that's a whole other thing is that like, to be in touch with someone from another country. But anyway, the two who remained detained, okay, so this case is like 15 clients just in, like 15 named plaintiffs in general. It deals with a class of people, a putative class of like across the entire country so obviously there's like a lot more people but I'm going to get to that in a little bit but like the people who I was personally dealing with, like hand- like handling communications with like talking to everyday were these five people. And so for the two, so two were out, one was deported. Two who remain detained, that, those are really the ones I'm talking about in terms of like speaking to them every day and getting both like centering but also kind of like freaking all of us out a lot because they were like, I don't know, like people were like getting sick left and right around them. Great, I mean, really, thankfully, both of them ended up ultimately being able to be released as well. One was under another like a CO- a facility specific COVID case. And then the last one was released under our PI, like, I mean when he was released and still to this day ICE like screws up procedure. So like, they might say that he was not released under our case, but like he was. Anyway um, so in terms of like, the dynamic when they were still detained versus when they got out um like, for me personally, it was- it was a little it was like really wonderful to be speaking with them as much as I was. Because like, as I said, it was like centering for everyone involved. And also like, I don't know, when you're like getting sucked into like, legal, briefing and stuff. It's nice to like, have a personal connection to why you're doing it. Um, and then for them, I think and I'm, I mean, I don't I'm not them. So I can't really speak to this, but I think it was like helpful to be able to like, feel like they're a part of, like, change or I don't know, advocacy, in addition to like having an anchor on the outside, who wasn't just their family, but like, who might have had some more like, tapped into more, like public health and whatever dynamics, um, and then once they got out… So, okay, your question was like, personally for me? What kind of like emotional lift was that working with people who were detained? Right?

EO 00:35:43

Yeah. Yeah, just about how, like, the pandemic was stressful for everyone on the outside. So, yeah, well, like, just how is that in comparison to working with people on the inside of, usually prisons, when we're talking, but (it in this situation.)

RLB 00:35:59

So I mean, I like really think about this one instance, which is definitely like an individual thing, but like, at the beginning of the pandemic, I don't know, I guess maybe, maybe a lot of people, not-incarcerated people might have experienced this, but like, I my roommate, like, or my housemate, like, kind of freaked out. And this is getting way into the weeds. Anyway, she like basically kicked me out of my house at the beginning of the pandemic. Meanwhile, I'm like talking to my, my client, like, every day, and he's like, thinking he's sick. And I'm like, it was just this weird thing where it was like, this juxtaposition of like, like, my, I don't know, like, I was fine, I was able to easily find housing. I mean, like, had plenty of options in terms of like family and friends I could go to and then like, figure stuff out to like, but like, to me, I was like, “Oh, my God, this is a huge issue. Like, I'm, like, I don't I'm like getting kicked out.” And then I'd like talk to my client. He'd be like, “My cellmate just tested positive for COVID. I've had TB in the past and have like, like, lung damage. And now I'm, like, pretty sure that I'm going to die.” And it was like, this thing where it was, like, kind of, there was some dissonance there, I'm like, “Oh, my God, my problems are so big.” And then I'm like, “Oh, my God, my problems are so small.” Um, that being said, like, once, once my clients were like, for those, for those of them who like, did get out of detention, like, the kinds of issues that were like the, I don't know, daily pandemic issues that we were dealing with, like really aligned and that like, is like, Oh, well, like, I mean, I don't have any kids. So like, this isn't my personal issue. But like, one of my clients was like, “Yeah, I mean, like, trying to, like, do remote school for my nine year old daughter, it's really tough.” And like, or, like, the other one being, like, who had was, like, really scared of getting COVID. And then ultimately did test positive at some point, but like, thankfully did fine. Like, once he's out, he's like, “I don't know, I'm just like, spending a lot of time with my mom.” Like, I don't know, it was like, maybe I'm saying stuff that's really obvious. But

EO 00:38:22

No, no, no.

RLB 00:38:23

Like, on the one hand, I guess it was good for me to just have like a reality check about how, like, my problems are really not that big. Um, on the other hand, it's like it was kind of connecting, and like, I don’t know, there were some shared universal experiences once my clients were out, I mean, some of that also when they were still in. But like, I mean, one thing that one of my clients did say, and I was like, oh my god, that is such a bummer. Like he'd been in jail or immigration detention center for like, six years, and then was like, “And now I'm just at home all the time, like, can't really do much” it's like oh, I'm sorry that this is the world you're finally out in, like, but at least you're with your family? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It's hard for me to really put into words like what the, like the emotional effect of all of this, like it was definitely pretty, pretty, trying. Also, all this is so one thing I did want to mention is that like under this case, we did also, we have this entire time since the PI had a hotline that folks, so not just our clients but like detained people across the country can call into and I am not pers- I don't personally staff that hotline, but um, but uh, I do work, I mean, I like, supervise the folks who do or work with them. And like, I know so like, I'm not dealing with these stories every day, but like, so I've had less of the like, “every single day” type- like in the last year, I've had less of that like, constant this like, kind constantly having to think about like the, the really tough personal experiences of people who remain detained. And, but there are people on my team who continue to talk to people like every single day who like, these days, it's like people have been detained for several months, and they've requested vaccines multiple times, they're not getting them, that sort of thing. Or, or I mean, there's still is like people, people who call in with like pretty severe medical conditions who like are, ICE denies their release, under our case, that sort of thing. So like, personally, because at this point, all of my personal, like, my, the clients to whom I have, like a personal connection have been out for a while, like, I'm less, it's less like at the forefront of my mind the, the just like how, how, I don't know. It- I haven't had to think about it as much the like experience. I mean, okay, that being said, I'm like still working on a case every day that like deals with the experiences of, like, incarcerated people, but like, I just, I'm less connected at this point to like, personal experiences right now, but, but there are people on the team who like, every day are still hearing from folks. And I don't really know what my point is with that, basically, just like I personally haven't, like, I've had kind of a break from that for a while. But obviously, I don't need to tell you, but the pandemic-related injustices continue.

EO 00:41:58

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, is there anything, like, well, kind of a two-parter question. Part 1, like, what was the hardest part about working in this time for you? And then is, has there been anything that's like gone well, or you kind of appreciate about working in this time that you might try to incorporate as, as we hopefully, exit this age of the [pandemic]?

RLB 00:42:25

I mean, again, I had like a limited, I had limited points of reference for like, a pre-pandemic time. So it's, I'm sure there are things that like, I, if I had been working longer before the pandemic, I would probably have more insight to respond to that question. Like, I guess, um, I mean, in terms of this case, this immigration detention case, like I don't know this for sure, but it's something that I've like thought about a bit but like, the fact that there was such a like, the like, pandemic was a nationwide slash global crisis did kind of, I don't know, highlight the need for like, these kind of broader responses, like a ICE systemwide kind of response that like, is something that was needed already. But like many things, the pandemic just kind of like highlighted, pre-existing issues. Um, in terms of like, day to day work stuff. Um I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. I like really don't know really what it was like, before the pandemic since I did so little. I had so little time. And like, before then I was just kind of like, didn't really know what's going on. I mean, I guess like, this is so boring, but like, logistically speaking, like, it is nice to be able to have like zoom court or like zoom depositions, that sort of thing, because it's like, uh, kind of equalizing and that you don't feel like, coming from a nonprofit, like, you don't have to, like, fly everywhere. Like, I don't know, it seems like I'm not paying the cost, but I feel like it's cost saving in a lot of ways. On the other hand, like for a lot of when you're, when you're thinking about like, working with incarcerated people, there is like a major benefit to being able to be with them in person. I mean, I think being able to, like, like, because we got, we got really used, my clients and I got really used to like talking on the phone. So like, I think that's what we adjusted to, but I do think there is something, especially if you're thinking about like, I mean, if you're thinking about like the, in terms of the kind of, like conditions-based issues that we were trying, that we continue to try to address in this case, like there's something that like, and the fact that a lot of these issues come from ICE’s inability or just inadequate monitoring and like, there is something to be said for, like actually being at, being able to go to a place, which couldn't really happen as much during the pandemic. But, I don't know, I'm really flip flopping on this, like, there. Yeah, I don't know, I guess. It. It has also like, because this team is so spread out like, for this again, logistically speaking, just my, the team that I work with, like it does kind of, I guess, because with everything being remote, it like kind of built more of a sense of like community, even though we didn't, haven't really seen each other for like, two years. It's like, I feel like I'm really connected with all these people who I work with all the time and like, my clients. And maybe that's just like, kind of a cognitive shift with everything, like everything in life being remote for so long. Just generally, it's like, I feel like I'm having like a face to face interaction, even though it's on Zoom. I don't know. I don't really know if that answered your question. I didn't really good. I didn't really have a response to the question.

EO 00:46:46

No, no, no, it totally did. And I feel, just to kind of echo what you're saying, I feel like a lot of the people we talk to like all of their answers, they're like, it goes both ways. And then like they totally have kind of both sides of every question. Um, my mind is blanking. What was I about to ask? Oh, have you- I know that you obviously, were only, like, practicing for a little bit before the pandemic, like, kind of got into full effect. But are there any like, professional, like you said, you talk to your clients a little bit, like you, you talk to your clients a little bit more regularly, regularly? Like, is there anything like that, that like, you hope to take with you? I know, that doesn't fully apply to you, because you weren't a lawyer for like, decades before. But you can skip this question if it doesn't.

RLB 00:47:40

I mean, like in terms of client community, like, clients relationships. Yeah, I mean, I guess like another thing is that it is kind of like hard to, and this is just, I imagine this is consistent across a lot of incarcer- like carceral contexts, but like, it is hard to have to like schedule legal calls all the time. And so like, a lot of the daily communication was like, kind of limited in that it was just like, I would be waiting for them to call me at a specific time if they had access to their like dorm phone. Um, but I guess that's just something that like, because we like, because those calls weren't confidential, like we did ended up like becoming a little bit more like they were like a little bit chattier instead of just like, I don't know, I mean, I'm, I'm chatty with them even on legal calls. But like, it does seem like I was kind of, because of that, that context, I was like, kind of forced to be a little bit more like, holistic, I don't know, think about them beyond the case, which I would hope that I would do otherwise. But like, it was kind of I mean, that is something I would like to carry with me, I guess. Yeah, I don't really know. Because, because my baseline kind of is the pandemic. It's like, I really, I might. Yeah, really don’t know.

EO 00:49:11

Now-- it'll be interesting, I wonder how attorneys that practiced for a long time before COVID change and how attorneys like you that kind of work, like began in COVID how y’all change and I wonder what the, I'm just curious to see what the greater shift is from the like, like, will we ever leave the pandemic mindset? Or will it kind of like, permanently impact our-

RLB 00:49:33

Right.

EO 00:49:33

-psyche?

RLB 00:49:34

Well, I mean, like, even so, like, just, again, this is not limited to my experience, but like my office has been remote this entire time. We haven't been in person since March, whatever, 13th or something. And so a lot of people have like, gone into the office every now and then. But like I haven't been to my office since March of 2020. And I actually like ended up like, thinking it was temporary, but it's become semi-permanent, like moving out of states, like I'm not even in a state where I'm technically working out of. Um, and so I guess just like, I don't know, the legal field, this is not specific to like working with incarcerated people, but like, the legal field is one that's been like, really tied to geography for a long time. But I think just generally speaking, like, I know that, like the whole world is like coming to terms with remote work in some ways, but like, I think the legal profession itself is like, kind of recognizing that, like, there were kind of antiquated geographical anchoring ideas before. I mean, not to say that, like, people can just be anywhere because I know that there's, I mean, you like, get licensed at a state because you have some specific understanding of that state's law. But, I mean, there has been kind of a shift pre-pandemic, like not really in California, but like, because like, I'm barred in California, so like, had to take California Bar couldn't take, like, what is it UBE or whatever those other states have, would have loved to have done that, but whatever. But like, I mean, like, even with the shift with like, the universal bar exam, like it has kind of been more of a recognition that like, there are kind of more transfer, like, this isn't something that is like, this is something that is a little bit more flexible than like, historically we've thought and I think the pandemic, I mean, several people in my organization, like moved out of state during the pandemic, and it's like, we've been able to get our work done, and everything's been fine. And so even just in terms of like, yeah, that sort of, that sort of thing that's like been people in other in other professions have kind of had this awakening about remote work. Like, I think my organization has also kind of been like, oh, you know what, like, especially if we're doing federal litigation, you don't actually need to be in the state where you're practicing all the time.

EO 00:52:01

Huh. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that kind of manifests in the legal profession. Yeah.

RLB 00:52:07

I mean, who knows? Maybe it’ll just like, return, I mean, totally revert to like,

EO 00:52:12

(laughs) No.

RLB 00:52:12

(laughs) Like, I like being able to work remotely. I mean, obviously it has like, like any profession, and working from home, it's like, it does make it a little bit harder to draw boundaries. But I think that, like, I think the benefits outweigh

EO 00:52:30

Yeah, yeah. And it works really well for some people and not so for other people. And so it's like, I don't know, have both options. And then my final kind of conclusion, my conclusive, I don't know if that's a word question is, the whole purpose of this project is to kind of be a resource for legal practitioners moving forward. And so do you have any like, I know, it's hard to look in hindsight, because I feel like we're very much still in it. But do you have any advice for legal providers moving forward in this pandemic? Or if there ever was a similar event? It can be small, or it can be big.

RLB 00:53:11

Advice. (long pause.) Good question. Well, I feel like I'm like, I have like, 75 different ideas. But um, I guess this isn't specific to working with incarcerated people, nor is it specific to like, being a legal practitioner, but I think a lot of lawyers in particular, like, are afraid to ask for help. And they want to seem like they know everything that's going on and have a grasp on everything that's going on. But one thing that I really feel like the pandemic has highlighted is like, just like, ask people for help if you need it. As like, yeah, that's kind of a universal piece of advice. But I think it's important for people to keep in mind, especially lawyers. And I mean, that yeah, that's something that would have been relevant pre-pandemic, but especially post I mean, during the pandemic, when like, when communication is differ- is so remote and like, we are feeling a little bit, not a little, a lot, like, disconnected from people around you, it's like, it is important to explicitly be like, “Hey, I don't know what this is. Please help me.”

EO 00:54:47

Yeah, we saw that a lot, and like, I feel like a lot of fields developed, like really expansive listservs and you just throw a question in and you get like 10 answers in a few minutes. I think that's great advice.

Um, and so then kind of just like next steps with the project. I’m not at all knowledgeable of how the transcription works. But I would guess that in like a few weeks, you'll get an email to trans-

RLB 00:55:17

That’s okay.

EO 00:55:17

transcribing, I was gonna say “transcribement” (laughs) then you get a transcript, and you can review it and just like, tell us if you want to cut anything. Or if you think of anything today, or it'll just like, shoot me an email. Yeah, if you have any questions about it, I could try to answer or I can connect you with someone that probably can answer it a little better. And thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I think that this project has like already led to a really interesting conversations. And I think it's great to have like, a diversity of opinions about kind of working with people behind bars, whatever bars those are. So yeah. Thank you so much.

RLB 00:55:57

Well, thank you. This is great. I hope I gave some helpful-

EO 00:56:02

No, no,

RLB 00:56:02

-rambley I haven't like thought I mean, it's so weird, because like we're still in the pandemic, but like, I hadn't really thought of it. Like, I've kind of forgotten about a lot of the beginning of the pandemic because it feels like ages ago, and so much has happened since then. It's like, it took a lot of me that like I had to gather my thoughts a lot to respond to these questions. So anyway, I hope there's something helpful in there, but- This felt cathartic for me.

EO 00:56:26

I’m glad. Well, thank you so much, and I'll be in touch about that transcription.

RLB 00:56:31

Cool. Thank you so much.

EO 00:56:34

See you. Bye.

RLB 00:56:34

Bye.